30-30 Your Opinions?
- Thread starter Dosing
- Start date
Boomer said:
That is one of the most intelligent & insightful posts that I've seen here in a while. I agree 100%!
I shot my first deer over 20 years ago with a 30-30 in a Winchester 94 and have seen a pile of them that fell to the same cartridge. Anybody that says a 30-30 isn't "adequate" for deer doesn't know #### fom putty
!
It can kill deer beyond 150 yards, if you can put it there. This is more of a 'separates the men from the boys' cartridge than anything else. Sure, anybody can put a 7MM Rem Mag (e.g.) onto the target at 200 yards because it shoots so flat. But when you start putting a little arc in the flight plan, the rookies -sorry- those who don't know their cartridge's ballistics at range are the ones going to miss or wound the animal.
I'm not saying everyone who shoots a flat-shootin' cartridge is somehow inferior - far from it. What I'm saying is if somebody (in my humble, ignorant, and probably incorrect opinion) is going to use the .30-30 at BEYOND 100 yards, they better know what they're doing.
What was the question? :roll: :lol:
Grouse Man
I'm not saying everyone who shoots a flat-shootin' cartridge is somehow inferior - far from it. What I'm saying is if somebody (in my humble, ignorant, and probably incorrect opinion) is going to use the .30-30 at BEYOND 100 yards, they better know what they're doing.
What was the question? :roll: :lol:
Grouse Man
I think we need a 30-30 vs. .243 Win poll... :roll:
You need to know what you're shooting and what the lethal range is and your trajectory, not to mention what bullet and load you're firing. You can shoot a cannon but if you don't know the properties of what you're shooting, what does it matter? Plus you need to be able to shoot!
30-30 is adequate. So is a pointed stick within it's proper range. Ask a caveman.
The question is, would it be your first choice? No, I don't think so.
You need to know what you're shooting and what the lethal range is and your trajectory, not to mention what bullet and load you're firing. You can shoot a cannon but if you don't know the properties of what you're shooting, what does it matter? Plus you need to be able to shoot!
30-30 is adequate. So is a pointed stick within it's proper range. Ask a caveman.
The question is, would it be your first choice? No, I don't think so.
Hunter Shooting Skill IS the Real Issue EH
No less an authority than Col Townsend Whelen commented on the Win carbine in 30-30 in his last book, the title of which escapes me eh!
He found it was accurate enough at 100 yards but had a "wandering zero" in rapid fire which is unlikely in deer hunting. All you really is one or two shots.
My own deer hunting technique with the 30-30 is to put TWO rapid shots into the "deer boiler room" so that it falls within view versus lengthy tracking. 50-100 yards in boreal forest.
My Friend Elmer at the Lakehead has killed over 20 deer with his 30-30 with predominantly one shot kills. Elmer is the guy "you dont want to shoot against at the local turkey shoot"...
For one shot "instant kills" in the "boiler room" my pick is the Win .348..deer moose..the Model 71 carbine is a great hunting piece eh!
I have used lever action rifles and carbines for 50 years for hunting, traget practice and now cowboy action matches. They are great for repeat shots on running targets with a Lyman peep sight with its ghost ring setting, no fine peep disc in.
As my above subject line, my take on the "adequacy of the 30-30" and/or any hunting round is the skill that the hunter/rifleman-riflewoman can bring to the task.
Over the past forty years I helped out as an RO/Safety Officerwith numerous moose and deer hunter sight ins. One at the Lakehead had 200 shooters over a week of sightins.
My overall impression and the actual "shooting results" was that either some of the shooting public is "over gunned" with a "$1500 .416 cal Zapperatta" and just one or two boxes of ammo OR "ole faithful" which they have had for 10 years and fired a total of of 40 or 60 shots..maybe LESS EH.
One of the most interesting results was watching two experience Historical reenactors from Old Fort William outshoot at 75yards "all comers" with their Brown Bess and Ferguson rifles..think 1815 Sharpe eh!
Recently I visited a local MNR Office to inquire IF the MNR was gonna have any deer huntersight ins this Fall 2005.
The answer was basically, I think it is fair to say,"We cant get there from here..Federal Govt regulations..libabilities etc etc etc. NO SIGHT IN. Contact your local gun store. maybe they are sponsoring one.
Across Canada, how many "gun stores" sponsor hunter sightins. The stores sell all that 30-30 ammo and their 30-30s'..is that it? Any followup?
When was the last time you shot your 300H&H or 308 or 30-30 at a close range (50-100 yards) on a running target?..moving at a walking pace or "running like a deer".How FAST is that anyway? 20 mph from a standing start?
WHERE would you do that? What "moving target range"? How much do your 30-30 carrying hunting partners practice?
At the MNR Office where I visited recenetly there were pictures (drawings) of deer and other large game animals entitled "KNOW YOUR TARGET".
Lots of labels BUT NO target spot/places on the pictures were marked "instant kill" anatomical areas eh! Not politically correct right?
At the 40 years off and on of Moose and Deer Sightins that I helped with and witnessed the biggest factors wer the hunters ACTUAL knowledge of "where to shoot" to get a mortal hit.
Put the target past 100 yards with iron sights and limited knowledge of "practical trajectory" and what will be the results?
At deer ranges in the woods around 50 yards all you really need is a 44-40 eh! IF you know where the deers heart is on the target presented to you then IF ZEROED PROPERLY you can hit it at that range.
Tonight at the range I shot my S&W .357 N-Frame at 25yards. IF it was legal as it was "once upon in Ontario in the 1960's" to HUNT Deer with a handgun
You could kill a deer at 25 or 50 yards with a full charge .357 or 44 magnum. You would have to be able to hit the heart-lung "dinner plate" consistently.
Simply put, most hunters dont shoot their 30-30's or hunting rifles to be consistent shots with them.
Wanna prove me wrong? How about a random sample of CGN shooters and having them show up sometime this year to have a 100 yard match on deer or moose silouettes as a preparation and/or post mortem of the fall 2005 hunt?
Better yet, a random sample of 30-30 shooters!
All the participants would need is some CSSA/OFAH/NRA/NFA insurance and a token match fee eh! OR is there something else I have overlooked.
After all the MNR is not having one in my area apparently due to liability concerns.
To conclude, when was the last time you saw a Provincial Rifle Association shoot a "running stag event" on a 100 or 200 metre range?
"Once Upon a TIME" that was a regular event as well.Maybe it still is eh! How many shooters show up?
IF you think there would be any useful purpose in having a 30-30 or ANY calibre type Deer or Moose Silouettte Anatomical Target Match let me know by pm.
IDEALLY how about some MOVING targets for those 30-30 shooters!
How about two hits on a two targets spaced apart to simulate actual movement in five seconds at 100 yards from the "shooter ready position".
INQUIRING MINDS wanna know just how good the randomly picked CGN shootist is with their smokepoles! Naturally such a group will put all their bullets in one hole eh
IF there is enough interest I will offer to proceed to set it up with a team of volunteer RO's provided we can work through the liability issues that have apparently precluded one MNR Branch from having any area sightins for their local deer hunters. Maybe it wont be until winter 2006 when the rifles are put away to await another hunting season.
All net proceeds if any would go towards the Canadian Cancer Society.
We could do some useful investigations together. Physical proof beats words sometimes.
NB I would encourage ALL CGNs to consider 30-30 deer anatomical target matches at their Conservation Clubs provided you and your Club can cover off the attendant liability on a CFO approved range in your Province or Territory.
No less an authority than Col Townsend Whelen commented on the Win carbine in 30-30 in his last book, the title of which escapes me eh!
He found it was accurate enough at 100 yards but had a "wandering zero" in rapid fire which is unlikely in deer hunting. All you really is one or two shots.
My own deer hunting technique with the 30-30 is to put TWO rapid shots into the "deer boiler room" so that it falls within view versus lengthy tracking. 50-100 yards in boreal forest.
My Friend Elmer at the Lakehead has killed over 20 deer with his 30-30 with predominantly one shot kills. Elmer is the guy "you dont want to shoot against at the local turkey shoot"...
For one shot "instant kills" in the "boiler room" my pick is the Win .348..deer moose..the Model 71 carbine is a great hunting piece eh!
I have used lever action rifles and carbines for 50 years for hunting, traget practice and now cowboy action matches. They are great for repeat shots on running targets with a Lyman peep sight with its ghost ring setting, no fine peep disc in.
As my above subject line, my take on the "adequacy of the 30-30" and/or any hunting round is the skill that the hunter/rifleman-riflewoman can bring to the task.
Over the past forty years I helped out as an RO/Safety Officerwith numerous moose and deer hunter sight ins. One at the Lakehead had 200 shooters over a week of sightins.
My overall impression and the actual "shooting results" was that either some of the shooting public is "over gunned" with a "$1500 .416 cal Zapperatta" and just one or two boxes of ammo OR "ole faithful" which they have had for 10 years and fired a total of of 40 or 60 shots..maybe LESS EH.
One of the most interesting results was watching two experience Historical reenactors from Old Fort William outshoot at 75yards "all comers" with their Brown Bess and Ferguson rifles..think 1815 Sharpe eh!
Recently I visited a local MNR Office to inquire IF the MNR was gonna have any deer huntersight ins this Fall 2005.
The answer was basically, I think it is fair to say,"We cant get there from here..Federal Govt regulations..libabilities etc etc etc. NO SIGHT IN. Contact your local gun store. maybe they are sponsoring one.
Across Canada, how many "gun stores" sponsor hunter sightins. The stores sell all that 30-30 ammo and their 30-30s'..is that it? Any followup?
When was the last time you shot your 300H&H or 308 or 30-30 at a close range (50-100 yards) on a running target?..moving at a walking pace or "running like a deer".How FAST is that anyway? 20 mph from a standing start?
WHERE would you do that? What "moving target range"? How much do your 30-30 carrying hunting partners practice?
At the MNR Office where I visited recenetly there were pictures (drawings) of deer and other large game animals entitled "KNOW YOUR TARGET".
Lots of labels BUT NO target spot/places on the pictures were marked "instant kill" anatomical areas eh! Not politically correct right?
At the 40 years off and on of Moose and Deer Sightins that I helped with and witnessed the biggest factors wer the hunters ACTUAL knowledge of "where to shoot" to get a mortal hit.
Put the target past 100 yards with iron sights and limited knowledge of "practical trajectory" and what will be the results?
At deer ranges in the woods around 50 yards all you really need is a 44-40 eh! IF you know where the deers heart is on the target presented to you then IF ZEROED PROPERLY you can hit it at that range.
Tonight at the range I shot my S&W .357 N-Frame at 25yards. IF it was legal as it was "once upon in Ontario in the 1960's" to HUNT Deer with a handgun
You could kill a deer at 25 or 50 yards with a full charge .357 or 44 magnum. You would have to be able to hit the heart-lung "dinner plate" consistently.
Simply put, most hunters dont shoot their 30-30's or hunting rifles to be consistent shots with them.
Wanna prove me wrong? How about a random sample of CGN shooters and having them show up sometime this year to have a 100 yard match on deer or moose silouettes as a preparation and/or post mortem of the fall 2005 hunt?
Better yet, a random sample of 30-30 shooters!
All the participants would need is some CSSA/OFAH/NRA/NFA insurance and a token match fee eh! OR is there something else I have overlooked.
After all the MNR is not having one in my area apparently due to liability concerns.
To conclude, when was the last time you saw a Provincial Rifle Association shoot a "running stag event" on a 100 or 200 metre range?
"Once Upon a TIME" that was a regular event as well.Maybe it still is eh! How many shooters show up?
IF you think there would be any useful purpose in having a 30-30 or ANY calibre type Deer or Moose Silouettte Anatomical Target Match let me know by pm.
IDEALLY how about some MOVING targets for those 30-30 shooters!
How about two hits on a two targets spaced apart to simulate actual movement in five seconds at 100 yards from the "shooter ready position".
INQUIRING MINDS wanna know just how good the randomly picked CGN shootist is with their smokepoles! Naturally such a group will put all their bullets in one hole eh
IF there is enough interest I will offer to proceed to set it up with a team of volunteer RO's provided we can work through the liability issues that have apparently precluded one MNR Branch from having any area sightins for their local deer hunters. Maybe it wont be until winter 2006 when the rifles are put away to await another hunting season.
All net proceeds if any would go towards the Canadian Cancer Society.
We could do some useful investigations together. Physical proof beats words sometimes.
NB I would encourage ALL CGNs to consider 30-30 deer anatomical target matches at their Conservation Clubs provided you and your Club can cover off the attendant liability on a CFO approved range in your Province or Territory.
catnthehatt
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
When I hear about an animal that is wounded and gets away, the first thing I ask is "where did you hit it?"
Usually it's " right in the chest" or "lungs" or "heart" , or wherever.
The second thing I ask is "What shot did you take and how far?"
I usually get " he was quartering hard at 150" or
" He was going away from me at 75"
Or he came blasting across the field from the brushat about 100 yards"
The answers never add up to the questions.
The end result is a lost animal from a badly placed shot.
Regardless of the caliber.
Let's face it , woul you rather hit a deer in the lungs with a 30/30 at 100 yards, or in the guts at 100 yards with a 338 Screaming Garbonzo Bean magnum?
Incidently, I have heard this scenario MORE from hunters using the latest modern scoped up rifles than from guys shooting 30/30's and 303's!
ANY caliber bullet is pretty well useless if it isn't placed properly....
Cat
Usually it's " right in the chest" or "lungs" or "heart" , or wherever.
The second thing I ask is "What shot did you take and how far?"
I usually get " he was quartering hard at 150" or
" He was going away from me at 75"
Or he came blasting across the field from the brushat about 100 yards"
The answers never add up to the questions.
The end result is a lost animal from a badly placed shot.
Regardless of the caliber.
Let's face it , woul you rather hit a deer in the lungs with a 30/30 at 100 yards, or in the guts at 100 yards with a 338 Screaming Garbonzo Bean magnum?
Incidently, I have heard this scenario MORE from hunters using the latest modern scoped up rifles than from guys shooting 30/30's and 303's!
ANY caliber bullet is pretty well useless if it isn't placed properly....
Cat
You must also consider all factory 30-30 ammo is pretty much designed for deer sized animals as such it works very well!
I have seen a LOT of deer killed with factory 30-30, they were all dead :wink: with what looked like good bullet performance!
as such it works very well!I have seen a LOT of deer killed with factory 30-30, they were all dead :wink: with what looked like good bullet performance!
john-brennan
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver Island B.C.
30-30
Keep shots to 150 yards and they are fine.
Keep shots to 150 yards and they are fine.
