.30 cal vs. 7mm

Check out the newish Hrn monoflex and FTX rifle bullets. You have extensive expansion down to 1400fps. I bet they will still show expansion at 1000fps. They look like a conventional softpoint at 2500 or a Barnes at 3000fps

all of a sudden the 30-30 can create a similar wound channel to a 308/30-06 to a 300WM/ RUM. It may not exit the same way but the innards got the same tunnel. Yes, all that extra energy usually is spent on yonder tree.

Having spent some time shooting stuff to test both bullet integrity and expansion, I can say that bullet diameter and mass have a far greater effect on fluid then velocity. Usually, going real fast also means dumping all the energy in a shallow event. big and slow tunnels and displaces alot of stuff.

A very long time ago, the 44-40 was plenty gun to put meat in the shed - that is less go then a 44 magnum. The 45-70 a huge game dropper. Monsters like the 45-120 blowing through massive amounts of bison at extreme distances - shoulder fired artilery. The 30-30 a flat shooting zapper.

Most hunting, then and now still happends inside 200yds. A bullet needs to expand so much and travel so far and the internal damage and effect is similar.

If ft-lbs was the end all, how can an arrow kill anything?

Jerry
 
kman300 said:
Unpossible!! With target bullets no less!
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Slow them way down and they work just like a "premium" bullet out of a super magnum.

It's all about matching impact velocity, bullet design and the game.

I was present when a berger failed at 200yds (muzzle velocity 2900fps). Others have reported very shallow wounds and lousy on game performance using some monster 30cal slugs but buzzing them out at high speeds and hitting at very short distances. (bad combo by the way)

Some have blown through shoulders on very large elk at ungodly distances using Sierra MK's

Jerry
 
Good points all! I also agree the best thing bullet makers have done in a long while is show what happens to the bullet at different impact velocities!

Jerry, I tip my hat to you, some of the best posts I have ever read around here have come from you, hard to argue with facts, common sense, and direct experience!
 
Cleftwynd said:
Good points all! I also agree the best thing bullet makers have done in a long while is show what happens to the bullet at different impact velocities!

Jerry, I tip my hat to you, some of the best posts I have ever read around here have come from you, hard to argue with facts, common sense, and direct experience!
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Appreciate the kind words.

Jerry
 
At the risk of being reminded that I said this before, animals do NOT read energy charts.

The guys that carefully calculate what it takes to kill this, or that, are dealing with a deck short
a few cards.

Decent bullets, with proper placement, will kill the animal, because of tissue disruption and
cessation of vital-to-life processes, not because of some minimum energy figure.

Regards, Eagleye
 
Mystic Precision said:
Check out the newish Hrn monoflex and FTX rifle bullets. You have extensive expansion down to 1400fps. I bet they will still show expansion at 1000fps. They look like a conventional softpoint at 2500 or a Barnes at 3000fps

all of a sudden the 30-30 can create a similar wound channel to a 308/30-06 to a 300WM/ RUM. It may not exit the same way but the innards got the same tunnel. Yes, all that extra energy usually is spent on yonder tree.

Having spent some time shooting stuff to test both bullet integrity and expansion, I can say that bullet diameter and mass have a far greater effect on fluid then velocity. Usually, going real fast also means dumping all the energy in a shallow event. big and slow tunnels and displaces alot of stuff.

A very long time ago, the 44-40 was plenty gun to put meat in the shed - that is less go then a 44 magnum. The 45-70 a huge game dropper. Monsters like the 45-120 blowing through massive amounts of bison at extreme distances - shoulder fired artilery. The 30-30 a flat shooting zapper.

Most hunting, then and now still happends inside 200yds. A bullet needs to expand so much and travel so far and the internal damage and effect is similar.

If ft-lbs was the end all, how can an arrow kill anything?

Jerry
Click to expand...

Sounds like your thinking is the same as mine; after decades of hunting with much more powerful cartridges I just bought my first 30-30 two weeks ago, and am working on handloads and scoping it as we speak. I'm confident that the game I shoot, which almost always seems to be around 100 yards or so, will react just the same to well placed 30 cal bullets fired from a 30-30 as they have been to 303 brit, 308, 30-06 and 300 win mag.
 
By adjusting the bullet vs impact velocity, you can make that 30-30 have a wide range of ongame effect.

I think we are going to see a whole lot of new interest in "small" cartridges as bullets and powder evolve. The manf have beat the "go big" products to death so what's next?

The huge increase in AR useage in the hunting world will spawn more and more small cartridges. 6.5 Grendel will likely evolve a 7mm and 30cal variant. Rem has their 30AR which for whatever reason isn't getting much love.

But the 300AAC and Whisper sure are popular. With so many flattening wild hogs, whitties can't be far behind.

The 6.8 SPC is a known quantity waiting for better bullets. The 30 Rem and 7mm off this case would be naturals.

I have even seen a bunch of renewed interests in old gems like the 7 TCU and I am sure someone will redo a bunch of eastern semis into 308 7.62X39's.

Same internal trauma for 1/2 the recoil, noise and fuss. It may take a few years before hunters give up on their mondo magnums but there is little point anymore for hunting at normal distances. Eventually, the market will move back to what is essentially rimless 30-30 equivalents. We were here 100+ yrs ago so not surprise when we return.

Jerry
 
BigUglyMan said:
This should be a doosie!

I wouldn't hesitate to hunt with the 7mm-08 except that the 7x57 is far cooler. I wouldn't say that when comparing the 7mm-08 to the 308 or 280 to 30-06 that one outdistances the other. In fact, if I had both I'd let you choose which you wanted to hunt with and I'd use the other one.
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I always keep a coin or two in my pocket in case such a situation like this pops up,only way to go.
 
Mystic Precision said:
Check out the newish Hrn monoflex and FTX rifle bullets. You have extensive expansion down to 1400fps. I bet they will still show expansion at 1000fps. They look like a conventional softpoint at 2500 or a Barnes at 3000fps

all of a sudden the 30-30 can create a similar wound channel to a 308/30-06 to a 300WM/ RUM. It may not exit the same way but the innards got the same tunnel. Yes, all that extra energy usually is spent on yonder tree.

Having spent some time shooting stuff to test both bullet integrity and expansion, I can say that bullet diameter and mass have a far greater effect on fluid then velocity. Usually, going real fast also means dumping all the energy in a shallow event. big and slow tunnels and displaces alot of stuff.

A very long time ago, the 44-40 was plenty gun to put meat in the shed - that is less go then a 44 magnum. The 45-70 a huge game dropper. Monsters like the 45-120 blowing through massive amounts of bison at extreme distances - shoulder fired artilery. The 30-30 a flat shooting zapper.

Most hunting, then and now still happends inside 200yds. A bullet needs to expand so much and travel so far and the internal damage and effect is similar.

If ft-lbs was the end all, how can an arrow kill anything?

Jerry
Click to expand...

I used a 325gr FTX in my muzzleloader this fall. Worked great, will use it again next year.
 
Mystic Precision said:
Same internal trauma for 1/2 the recoil, noise and fuss. It may take a few years before hunters give up on their mondo magnums but there is little point anymore for hunting at normal distances. Eventually, the market will move back to what is essentially rimless 30-30 equivalents. We were here 100+ yrs ago so not surprise when we return.

Jerry
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I think you are correct. A few years ago I had a Rem 788 in 30-30. I loaded it with 130gr TSX bullets at about 2400-2500 fps. I always figured it would kill anything I wanted to out to about 250 yards. Never did kill anything with it as the one time i took it out I forgot the magazine at home.

We have already seen lots of success with .223's and 22-250's on big game with todays bullets. Eventually people will figure out that all those smaller cartridges you listed work just fine, and a 7-08 with a premium bullet is probably the biggest we need to use for the majority of hunting situations, which generally occur at 300yds or less.
 
kel226 said:
The 7 Mag can do what the 30 Mag can with 30% less recoil. Not a hard one to figure out. It's also the nut behind the butt that makes the difference.
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All i can add to this quote is a 7mm will also carry its energy further down range. Inside 600 i like my 300WSM... after 600 its my 7mm rem mag all the way.
 
pilot2001 said:
All i can add to this quote is a 7mm will also carry its energy further down range. Inside 600 i like my 300WSM... after 600 its my 7mm rem mag all the way.
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Not sure what bullets you are using but a 7mm rm with 162amax/168bergers at 2950fps or the 180 berger at 2850 will be pretty much the same fps and ~150ft/lbs less than the 300 wsm with a 208amax/210berger at 2850.

160gr accubond at 3k and a 200 accubond at 2850fps again has the same fps at 1000 but the 200 accubond has ~200ft/lbs more energy.

Again, not sure what bullets you are using but the 300 short is no slouch.
 
vikingocazar said:
Okay, I'm sure this has been done to death so if anyone has a link that they can share where this has been sorted I'd love to see it. Having said that, I recently had a number of very long conversations with a friend who says that all North American big game can be hunted with calibers that I would never before considered. What I found to be interesting was that he said the sectional density of the 7mm (.284) is so superior to the .308 calibers out there that there is no reason to go with that venerable cal. Does this make sense? He says that 7mm penetrates better, has superior ballistic coefficient and penetration. I have always been of the mind that the bigger the bullet diameter, the bigger the whole=better, quicker, more humane kill. He's telling me that a 7mm-08 is capable of taking down elk and moose. I am very open to getting into a caliber that doesn't kick like a moose if I don't need to...so any thoughts? And, like I said, if this exact post already exists I'm happy to read it (my search results were less than fruitful)
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This topic has been beaten to death more times than we can possibly imagine in more places than we can possibly imagine.It will no doubt continue to be beaten to death as long as there are at least two shooters left, one using each caliber.Does make for interesting posts though.Personally I love both calibers,gives me an excuse to have more rifles!
 
bjmurata said:
This topic has been beaten to death more times than we can possibly imagine in more places than we can possibly imagine.It will no doubt continue to be beaten to death as long as there are at least two shooters left, one using each caliber.Does make for interesting posts though.Personally I love both calibers,gives me an excuse to have more rifles!
Click to expand...

True enough and ;)the same here. I have a couple of 7s, a 7x57R and a 7x61S&H and a couple of 30s, 30-06 and a 308NM and most of the decission of which to use and when is based on a few basics. The game hunted, probable range and terrain of the area and last but not least,:redface: the preferential 'flavor of the day'.
 
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