.30 Carbine For Deer

[billbmcleod]

My dad had one for deer and got quite a few deer with it from the later 40's to the 60's when he gave up deer hunting for moose with a .303 Br. When he hunted deer with the M1 soft point ammo was like gold so I think kill shots and such were with ball ammo. He used to do the dogging all the time so loosing a wounded animal was not a problem either.

 

[dimeN]

the upside is you have a quick followup shot with 30 carbine.. no recoil with a wimpy cartridge like that

 

[Freyr_255]

Funny about regional preferences. I know guys Down East who have no trouble shooting 30 Carbine at deer and killing them. Go West and a 7.62x39 is scorned as not nearly enough gun. For a while Quebec's hunting regs had a section that the angle of the dangle divided by the mass of the ass squared by the cross section of the hunter's last meal. A really complicated formula to specify acceptable big game cartridges. The trouble was, it unintentionally excluded 30-30s while trying to exclude .243 and 30 Carbine.

To the OP - yes on paper, but ...... There are better choices. The .30 Carbine isn't much more bullet and ballistics than a .357 Magnum IMHO.

The one thing that doesn't seem to be mentioned in this thread is that eastern deer are tiny compared to anything out west.

 

[mbogo3]

Well there are 100's of thousands dead VC,North Koreans,Chinese,Japanese ,Italians + Germans that would argue a .30 carbine works.A 7.62x25 is a known manstopper with exceptional penetration at 1500fps /87gr,how then can a 110gr travelling at 2000fps be harmless?And SP will be used .Transports full of game has been harvested with 32-20,38-40 +44-40 forget the 100ft/lbs ..........BS. Set up at under 100 yards pick your shot and keep your knife handy for dressing.PS there are 180-200lb + WT's in Ontario.[And the 7.62x39 was designed to drop people out to 400 yards.Big AB WT and mulies are dead cleanly at 200 yards every time.]

 

[Maple57]

The reason the 30 carbine is somewhat controversial is with regard to hydraulic shock.

When a bullet hits soft tissue and generates the initial temporary wound channel, then that collapses into the permanent wound channel, the difference is where we find the juice.

At 2400 FPS the temporary wound channel occurs with such hydraulic force that that tissue damage becomes permanent. Below 2400, like the 30 carbine round... that initial temporary wound channel damage is not permanent.

That does not mean the round is not effective however as the bullet does create a permanent wound channel that is not to be under stated. It just does not kill from hydraulic shock. It kills more like an arrow where the animal dies from blood loss and organ failure.

Keep in mind that even a humble 22 LR does and has easily killed deer, so anything with more energy than that is increasingly more effective. Not that I'm suggesting that you go off and test this fact.

Bottom line is that appropriate bullet design has more to do will terminal performance than anything else. I personally would use some sort of hollow point bullet that expands as quickly as possible and adamantly avoid anything geared to deep penetration as that would be counter to the objective.

 

[fingers284]

The reason the 30 carbine is somewhat controversial is with regard to hydraulic shock.

When a bullet hits soft tissue and generates the initial temporary wound channel, then that collapses into the permanent wound channel, the difference is where we find the juice.

At 2400 FPS the temporary wound channel occurs with such hydraulic force that that tissue damage becomes permanent. Below 2400, like the 30 carbine round... that initial temporary wound channel damage is not permanent.

That does not mean the round is not effective however as the bullet does create a permanent wound channel that is not to be under stated. It just does not kill from hydraulic shock. It kills more like an arrow where the animal dies from blood loss and organ failure.

Keep in mind that even a humble 22 LR does and has easily killed deer, so anything with more energy than that is increasingly more effective. Not that I'm suggesting that you go off and test this fact.

Bottom line is that appropriate bullet design has more to do will terminal performance than anything else. I personally would use some sort of hollow point bullet that expands as quickly as possible and adamantly avoid anything geared to deep penetration as that would be counter to the objective.

My experiences would differ from this on the most part. Both deer I shot with a .30 carbine had "bleeder" exit wounds on the off side...yes the entrance points had a small blood spot on the hair but did close up before much came out...but I have had the same with many dozens of deer shot with a plethora of different "high speed" rifles from 6 Mill to 300 WM.

The biggest difference in your post & my experience is in using the 45-70. I have shot many deer with a 45-70, 38-56 type BP speed slug (under 1300 fps). The old adage is entirely true...."eat right up to the hole". The fact is they act exactly as you describe the .30 carbine will...but would anyone argue the "killing prowess" of a 45-70. This year I plan on using a 260 gr .379 slug for my deer...not from an H&H but from a 38-55 at 1350 fps.

The one thing I will give you tho , with a .30 carb, shot placement is very critical...if the hunter cant hit a vehicle licence plate sized target ( the aprox area of rib cage behind the shoulder) every time at the range he's shooting too, he shouldn't be using a carb. A shoulder shot (heavy bone & 3 " of meat to penetrate before it gets to the "killing stuff") with a carb. will probably involve a lot of hoofing & tracking before recovery happens.

 

[mbogo3]

The M1 carbine did threat level III body armour no problem,now that's FMJ not a hunting round.The old wives tale of NK and Chinese in frozen quilted PJ's stopping M1 carbine bullets is pure bunk. Cases were when used past 200 yards on drugged or hyped up human wave attacks.The Broomhandle in .30 Mauser was a reliable manstopper only when bone was struck..........that changes when SP + HP's are allowed.

 

[Maple57]

My experiences would differ from this on the most part. Both deer I shot with a .30 carbine had "bleeder" exit wounds on the off side...yes the entrance points had a small blood spot on the hair but did close up before much came out...but I have had the same with many dozens of deer shot with a plethora of different "high speed" rifles from 6 Mill to 300 WM.

The biggest difference in your post & my experience is in using the 45-70. I have shot many deer with a 45-70, 38-56 type BP speed slug (under 1300 fps). The old adage is entirely true...."eat right up to the hole". The fact is they act exactly as you describe the .30 carbine will...but would anyone argue the "killing prowess" of a 45-70. This year I plan on using a 260 gr .379 slug for my deer...not from an H&H but from a 38-55 at 1350 fps.

The one thing I will give you tho , with a .30 carb, shot placement is very critical...if the hunter cant hit a vehicle licence plate sized target ( the aprox area of rib cage behind the shoulder) every time at the range he's shooting too, he shouldn't be using a carb. A shoulder shot (heavy bone & 3 " of meat to penetrate before it gets to the "killing stuff") with a carb. will probably involve a lot of hoofing & tracking before recovery happens.

The performance failure you mentioned with the 300 win mag is very typical of inappropriate bullet projectile selection, not velocity.

Obviously the 300 win mag has crazy adequate energy to kill a deer, but when the bullet is designed for deep penetration on large animals they fail to tumble while inside the small body of a deer.

Despite the ample energy you might just as well shoot the deer with a target arrow. All your going to get is a nice clean hole. That will work in the right place, but not well outside of that. Not to mention accuracy problems when the shooter fears recoil.

As with all cartridges, bullet selection is the key and we all need to be weary of false advertising within the ammunition marketing where they claim fragmentation is a bad thing... its a good thing on small animals like deer.

Killing deer is best done with fast expanding even fragmenting bullets... not penetrators which are so often mis used. All penetrating rounds do is hit the tree hard on the other side of the deer. Unless the energy is transfered to the animal before the bullet passes through the vitals, all the energy in the world wont make a difference.

I use hollow point bullets of no greater than 120 grains in my 308 and deer drop 2 feet straight down every time. Organs are obliterated and meat damage is negligible. I would suggest you try something similar with that 300.

 

[Dukester]

Love fragments in my venison( not ), and my 150 gr spire points at 3300fps ( target arrows ) left soup in between those small holes on either side. Never had a deer take a step after being hit with those target arrows !

 

[John Y Cannuck]

Many years ago, one of the guys at deer camp bet my brother $100 that he'd never kill a deer with his 30M1. To date, he hasn't. That has more to do with his attempts to use it as a full auto by rapidly pulling the trigger than any fault of the cartridge.
IMO, it's capable at close range.
His spray and pray shooting got him the name 'Rambo', and he no longer hunts. (thankfully)


Never paid the bet either.

 

[TK-Hryciuk]

So are lots of other calibres that have been used for hundreds of years to hunt with...But .223 is ok...

.223 is absolutely lethal on deer with proper bullet selection. The last 10 deer I have killed with .223 have died within 40 yards of being hit and some were shot over 200m.

 

[Maple57]

.223 is absolutely lethal on deer with proper bullet selection. The last 10 deer I have killed with .223 have died within 40 yards of being hit and some were shot over 200m.

100 percent

1:7 twist helps too

 

[fingers284]

Love fragments in my venison( not ), and my 150 gr spire points at 3300fps ( target arrows ) left soup in between those small holes on either side. Never had a deer take a step after being hit with those target arrows !

Well said !!

 

[Maple57]

Love fragments in my venison( not ), and my 150 gr spire points at 3300fps ( target arrows ) left soup in between those small holes on either side. Never had a deer take a step after being hit with those target arrows !

It's ego protective comments like this born of pure ignorance that are a disservice to new hunters.

Ego needs the 3300 FPS to kill a deer... might be compensating for something

Assuming I was specifically referring to his spire point bullets is a leap as I did not specifically mention it. But I do prefer hollow points for deer... not to say anything not a hollow point cant kill the deer.

And finding fragments of copper in meat.... I've shot a lot of deer and been party to many hunts where lots of deer were killed. The fragmentation does not travel more than a few inches from the impact and such damaged meat would be trimmed away by anyone with any meat processing experience... if it was actually in the meat, which it shouldn't be... and this leads us to an even more off the wall interpretation... why the deer is getting shot in the meat in the first place. Ribs, sure... but the rump is where 85 percent of deer meat is found... uh... duh... here's a tip... don't shoot your deer in the a$$.

Even the shoulder should be avoided when possible as that meat will be largely destroyed by any even non fragmenting rounds. Don't shoot your deer in the meat.

And to the point of shooting inaccuratly with a 300 WM because of the fear of recoil... well now we know why Dukester here shoots deer in the meat. Try a low recoil rifle you can shoot accurately and aim for the chest cavity... where the vital organs are.

Metal fragments in the heart and lungs help the deer die quickly. I can post pics of blown open heart, but that might be too gross for some.

 

[kodiakjack]

.

Ego needs the 3300 FPS to kill a deer... might be compensating for something
.

.

I use hollow point bullets of no greater than 120 grains in my 308...

I’m just gonna leave this here... ;-)

 

[Suther]

Funny about regional preferences. I know guys Down East who have no trouble shooting 30 Carbine at deer and killing them. Go West and a 7.62x39 is scorned as not nearly enough gun. For a while Quebec's hunting regs had a section that the angle of the dangle divided by the mass of the ass squared by the cross section of the hunter's last meal. A really complicated formula to specify acceptable big game cartridges. The trouble was, it unintentionally excluded 30-30s while trying to exclude .243 and 30 Carbine.

To the OP - yes on paper, but ...... There are better choices. The .30 Carbine isn't much more bullet and ballistics than a .357 Magnum IMHO.

And guys handgun hunt deer with 357mag revolvers in the states...

OP, Yes, it will work. I wouldn't be reaching for one, but where I live ranges can go long and I'd rather not pass a shot because its at 300yds instead of 200. I also prefer to be overgunned rather than undergunned with big game, and I find light-for-caliber bullets (say, 110-125gr 30cal pills) to really be lacking in sectional density.

If you've got the discipline to limit your ranges, then I would put it in the same class as many of the pistol caliber lever guns like 357, 44mag, 45colt and not think twice about it - a 30 Carbine is more gun than 44-40 and that was one of the go-to cartridges for years before smokeless powder took over.

So the question is not will it kill a deer, because it will. The question is whether you are willing to work within the limitations of the cartridge, and whether you are ok with the higher likelihood of having to track the deer after the shot.

 

[brybenn]

I guess i fall into all categories mentioned. I use both fast and slow. 2506 and 50 cal black powder muzzleloaders. Both work exceptionally well on deer. Of the nearly triple digit number of white tails ive shot majority have been archery and blackpowder. Most shots are 10 yards or less. I consider 40 yards a long shot generally but ive taken deer at over 300 yards with my 2506. My style of hunting is getting in close. To me a 30 carbine would work well for the way i hunt if i could use centerfire rifles in the area i hunt. Id also have no issue with a 9mm or 40sw pcc or 357 or 44mag. What others think is not relevent as i know what my loads when fired thru my guns are capable of with my skill set.
Compare a 3030 at 150 yards to a 30carbine at 50 yards. Most here will take that 150 yard shot with their open sighted 3030 at a mature buck. Maybe im weird but my groups are always tighter the closer i am to the target.
Ive shot deer with #4 and 00buck as well. One deer died quite dead with only a single 00buck pellet. The rest stayed in the tree that covered its shoulder. That single pellet made it thru both lungs and was under the offside rib. That deer made it 40 yards. Now it didnt bleed but i watch it drop thru my scope as my buddy shot it. Now a single pellet isnt ethical but a load of 00buck is. In my buddies case he was shaking in excitement and pulled his shot. First time being that close to a deer. So ethics be damned if its legal and you have faith in your gun and load and evidence that itll kill who cares what others say.
Theres plently of other cartridges that would be better suited to a wider range of shot scenarios but sometimes its more about the challenge then the kill. Like using a long bow for waterfowl. Its legal and frustrating. A 12ga is alot easier but some day im going to stick a duck with an arrow. Best of luck hunting

 

[tokguy]

Ethics be damned... maybe think about rewording that eh?
Could be said in a better way I'm thinking.

 

[Gofast240]

If you're close a well placed shot with frangible ammo should do it, but there are so many better options...

I am very confuse by your comment, I had to look up frangible definition " Frangible ammo is a training round designed to disintegrate into dust when they strike a hard target. Manufacturers make modern frangible bullets with a powder metallurgy, pressing and “sintering” metal that is formed into fine powder. A crushed frangible bullet, note the “fine” texture of the inner round" why would you want a bullet like this? would a good partition bullet be better than one that disintegrates? I agree there are better options out there.

 

[kodiakjack]

I am very confuse by your comment, I had to look up frangible definition " Frangible ammo is a training round designed to disintegrate into dust when they strike a hard target. Manufacturers make modern frangible bullets with a powder metallurgy, pressing and “sintering” metal that is formed into fine powder. A crushed frangible bullet, note the “fine” texture of the inner round" why would you want a bullet like this? would a good partition bullet be better than one that disintegrates? I agree there are better options out there.

Some folks use “frangible” and “expanding” interchangeably.

Then there are bullets that walk the line between both worlds, such as the Barnes Barmint Grenade, which compared to a soft point seems awfully frangible, but compared to frangible training ammo seems awfully solid.