30 Newton load development - what says Quickload?

[Rick]

So I have a new 30 Newton on the way - new as it's built on a modern action, not one of the original Buffalo Newtons. What I don't have is load data to give me some sort of a baseline to start with to augument all the other tools to check pressures aren't getting out of hand. Info from the 'Net seems rather scarce in this instance.

I took a 308 Norma Magnum case and the Newton case, filled the Norma case with salt to the case mouth, then dumped in the Newton. Seemed to fill the Newton case not quite to the case mouth. A 30 Newton fanatic on another forum tells me that as case capacity goes, the .30 Newton holds 89.2 grs of water, the 308 Norma Magnum holds 85.8 grs of water. I never asked whence his capacity figures came from. Crude, but suggests that 308 Norma Mag load data can be used for 30 Newton baseline data.

Second thing is a 30 Newton empty case with no primer and 168 gr TTSX bullet seated to just off lands in unfinished rifle. With the bullet seated, water capacity of the 30 Newton case after all air removed is 82.0 grains of water.

Any of you Quickload users out there who can use that 168 gr TTSX bullet and that water capacity to tell me what Quickload says should be the load limits with those parameters and what the results might be? I imagine I will start out with IMR4350, then try RL19, 4831, 760, and Hunter. Depends how fast success comes.

Thanks for any input from you Quickload folks out there. Curious as to how close predicted results come to actual outcome.

 

[Andy]

You can use load data between 308 Norma Mag on the low end and close to the 300 Win Mag on the high end. Quickload is a good tool to estimate pressures and will confirm that. However, Quickload will call any pressure higher than 51K "dangerous" in deference to legacy pressures in play when the 30 Newton was in its heyday, so loads will be closer to the 308 Norma Mag which operates at higher pressures.

As you've already surmised, you can go above 308 Norma Mag max loads. You can't however advance much past mid-high end 300 Win Mag loads.

 

[Baribal]

The .30 Newton case holds about 86 grains of water while the .308 Norma holds close to 85 grains.
If this can help, in Ackely's "Handbook for Shooters and Relaoders, vol II" there are some loads for the .300 Newton (belted). I'm not in my stuff right now, so can't post it for now.

 

[bigedp51]

I have Quickload and to get semi accurate output from Quickload you need chronograph readings for the load your are shooting and then adjust the burn rate of the powder in Quickload to match your velocity readings.

Its is nothing more than software generated guesstimates that isn't worth the price you would pay for it. A reloading manual gets its information from chamber pressure measuring equipment and a chronograph and the reading are real factual data.

Much of the output from Quickload even if you feed it data from a reloading manual doesn't come close to the manuals figures. Even if you feed your chronograph data into Quickload the chamber pressure output can be wrong.

Your better off having as many manuals as you can get to compare data than use computer guesstimates.
To be very truthful I wish I had used the money I spent on Quickload toward getting a MagnetoSpeed chronograph.

 

[sunray]

"...what says Quickload..." Computer programs are unreliable guesswork. You ever think of doing a net search for .30 Newton load data? There's data on Reloader's Nest. Only 5 loads, but the Newton is an old, old, old cartridge.

 

[Rick]

Computer programs are unreliable guesswork.

Computer programs CAN be unreliable guesswork. Of course, it hardly needs to be said that some of the load data found on websites like Reloader's Nest gives new meaning to the word "unreliable". Especially the load data that doesn't even give a source.

You ever think of doing a net search for .30 Newton load data? There's data on Reloader's Nest.

You ever think that maybe I already did a net search before posting here?

Yes, there's data on Reloader's Nest. You must have noticed not one of which is with a 165 or 168 grain bullet which I referred to using. None of which state who submitted the load, what the bullets used were, the primer used, the cartridge overall length, etc. Not what I'd consider all that trustworthy.

And the NewtonArmsCompany.com website no longer exists.

And I did look through my old Handloader magazines, P.O Ackley's load data, a quick peek to see what Phil Sharpe's book might have, Elmer Keith's writing as he was a 30 Newton fan, etc.

So yes, I did do a bit of searching, thank you. In fact, I'm fairly comfortable with developing load data with or without Quickload - indeed, I am fairly sure I can still develop load data without the use of a chronograph. But what I was asking about, and what I was curious about, is what Quickload might say. Think of it as just one more of many tools one could refer to. Like a chronograph, for example.

but the Newton is an old, old, old cartridge.

Yes, I know. It is almost as old as the 30/06 in fact.

 

[Rick]

The .30 Newton case holds about 86 grains of water while the .308 Norma holds close to 85 grains.

The original case capacities I gave of 89.2 and 85.8 respectively came from the Handoader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions, for whatever it is worth. The brass manufacturer can obviously have some affect on capacity. I have a few original Western cases in 30 Newton that are once fired; when I get home I will compare their capacity to that of this new Quality Cartridge brass I have.

My interest in what Quickload might say given the true capacity of the case with a seated bullet is that the gunsmith building the rifle is seeing some pressure signs with test loads that should be okay in a 308 Norma Magnum - a cartridge with less capacity. So my curiosity is somewhat aroused and I am curious about what Quickload says with the actual case capacity with a bullet seated in the brass I am using.

If this can help, in Ackely's "Handbook for Shooters and Relaoders, vol II" there are some loads for the .300 Newton (belted). I'm not in my stuff right now, so can't post it for now.

Thanks for the offer.

The "belted Newtons" had nothing to do with Charles Newton, although I don't remember much more about it than that. I've read alternatively that they were an effort to put Newton rifles back in use once ammunition dried up, or that they simply tried to cash in on the Newton name. I don't recall seeing anything on a .300 belted Newton, but if I remember correctly the 30 Belted Newton is also known as the 30/338. I imagine however, that they are similar to the 308 Norma Magnum in that their case capacity is similar enough to the Newton that their loading data could be used as a starting point.

I am a little wary of using very old load data for a number of reasons, not the least of which is powders today are much different than they were 50 - 60 years ago. And some of the old boys were pretty optimistic about not just velocities, but also about how low their pressures were.