300 AAC Blackout Accuracy Issues

[RockChucker]

Below is a direct quote from Savage Arms USA
300 AAC Blackout Chambering Cancelled:

Some time ago, Savage announced it would be chambering the Model 10 Precision Carbine in 300 AAC Blackout. Since that time, we have tested many variants of this cartridge in various barrel lengths and rates of twist. This exhaustive testing left us quite unsatisfied with the accuracy we were able to get from the subsonic loads in this chambering. Accuracy with the lighter, faster loads in this caliber was actually quite good. But we believe the real value in this cartridge lies in the use of subsonic loads for suppressed rifles. Therefore we have decided to scrap the project.

It is our understanding that pushing these heavy, slow bullets presents challenges not found in typical loadings and that our experience is not unique. Subsequently, many in the industry have simply adopted a lower standard for accuracy for these subsonic loads. While this does seem reasonable and we don't criticize any in our industry that have taken this approach, it just won't work for Savage.

Our brand was built on accuracy and we are too protective of our reputation for building the most accurate factory rifles available. We would rather walk away from this opportunity than sell a product that requires an explanation.



I also noticed Remington advertised a 700 SPS Tactical 300 AAC 1-7" twist
rifle on their site and all links showing same no longer function. Wondering if Remington discovered what Savage knows about the 300 AAC chambering inaccuracy issues.
I have chambered two bolt action {Remington} only to find accuracy was elusive to say the least. Somedays it doesn't pay to play with the flavour of the month Koolaid. No matter what gun writer says its the best thing since sliced bread. That chambering is going leave a bad taste in your mouth no matter what.
Now lets hear from all the satisfied 300 AAC owners out there.

RC

 

[2bad4u2]

While Savage has cancelled its plans, Remington has not. According to Remington, their .300 Blackout 700 based carbine will be released within the next (6) months or less. AAC has had a Model 7 chambered in the Blackout for some time now.

We've discussed your issues in PM's and I see you've decided to go to the forums about your situation. I feel bad that you haven't had the results you were hoping for. Building (2) rifles that ended up as failures is not only disappointing but very expensive!

The .300 Blackout is not a benchrest cartridge. It wasn't designed with that in mind and I think perhaps your expectations were perhaps un-realistic. Even the Blackout's parent cartridge, .300 Whisper, was never known as an exceptionally accurate cartridge and I wouldn't expect any different with the Blackout. What were your expectations for accuracy and what were your actual results?

I can only comment on my findings. So far, my experiences in finding acceptable accuracy have been favourable. I've been focussing my efforts primarily on 167gr.-168gr. bullets and I feel that I can fine tune the loads a little more to achieve slightly better results. Here's some groupings that I've shot. I think ut's fairly representative of what the cartridge is capable of.

Now as to Savage's claims of inaccuracy. I don't believe Savage has been completely forth comming on the actual reasons why they elected to not go down the .300 Blackout road. It's more likely, they are refusing to admit that they failed on their own and instead blame it on the cartridge.

Their cancellation is likely for several reasons. First of all, the fact no one wanted a factory 20" barrelled rifle in .300 Blackout with a 1:10" twist so they picked up their ball and walked off the playground. There was a recent change in SAAMI specifications to 1:7" twist instead of the original 1:8". Savage would have been so far off the mark that it wasn't even "on" the curve, let alone behind it.

Secondly, Savage actions often have feeding and ejection issues that are harder to resolve than ones experienced by Remington owners. In all likelihood Savage couldn't overcome the hurdles of making their rifles reliable enough to avoid excessive warranty claims and the potentials for un-happy customers. If this is the case, who could blame them? There's no sense in Savage putting a half-assed product to market.

 

[RockChucker]

I see from your groups that your not getting what I would consider acceptable accuracy from a custom rifle build.
My comments are NOT intended to insult but to confirm my conclusions.

RC

 

[tbrwlf]

Sub MOA is not accurate enough? Wow you guys are really hard on yourselves. I think the accuracy is more than satisfactory.

Mine will be built on a Remington 700 SPS. and if I can get the same accuracy as 2bad I will be very pleased. I am building mine as a hunting/truck/quad/snowmobile gun. Not to compete at long range events. I have guns for that.

 

[2bad4u2]

I see from your groups that your not getting what I would consider acceptable accuracy from a custom rifle build.
My comments are NOT intended to insult but to confirm my conclusions.

RC

Oh, I'm not insulted at all. I didn't go into either of my Blackout projects expecting benchrest accuracy or anything even close to that. The cartridge simply wasn't designed for that purpose and to expect otherwise is wishful thinking and will only lead to disappointment.

Regardless if I've got an aftermarket barrel on the rifle or not, the Blackout is only capable of so much. Not even AAC is claiming target grade accuracy. In fact, AAC's Robert Silvers claimed the best 10-shot average that their testing has achieved was in the area of .800 MOA @ 100 yds.

I don't think this one particular loading proves anything regarding the full potential of the Blackout or even the capability of my specific rifle.

I'm sure there are some individuals who will claim that certain load combinations shoot better than average for them. I have no doubt this is the case.

I'm still not done load development on this particular combination. I'm new to H110 and I can see the differene in pressure temperature makes with this powder, even at the relatively mild load I've started with. When I initially started in the colder weather, primer strikes looked like it was definitely under pressure. Now that temperatures are warmer, primers look good and what you would expect for normal pressures.

I think I'm going to try differnet primers next to see if there's any measurable difference in accuracy. If not, I'll make some slight adjustment to the charge weight for this particular accuracy node.

I'm looking forward to trying some match grade flat based bullets next. I think at the relatively modest velocities the Blackout is generating will be better suited to flat based bullets as opposed to boat tails. Only time will tell.

 

[bobfortier]

For my personnal education, what was this cartridge designed for ?

 

[mmattockx]

For my personnal education, what was this cartridge designed for ?

My understanding is it was to provide more punch from AR platforms, and for use as a suppressed sub-sonic round. The .300 Blackout is a standardized version of the .300 Whisper, which is a .221 Fireball case necked up to .308 calibre.


Mark

 

[2bad4u2]

When J.D. Jones came out with the .300 Whisper, he envisioned it to be a dual purpose (supersonic/subsonic) round that would be capable in bolt guns & the AR-15 platforms.

When AAC standardized the round with SAAMI and re-imagined (lol) it as .300 Blackout, the main marketing push has focussed on the AR-15 along with other platforms including the Remington Model 7, Model 700, and H&R Handi Rifle.

I think a Handi Rifle in .300 Blackout would be an excellent rifle for back packing or to throw in the back cab of a truck.

 

[Suputin]

My understanding is it was to provide more punch from AR platforms, and for use as a suppressed sub-sonic round. The .300 Blackout is a standardized version of the .300 Whisper, which is a .221 Fireball case necked up to .308 calibre.


Mark

Ed Zachary.

On the accuracy issue, I'd say the roughly 3/4 moa groups 2bad is getting are more than good enough for a short barreled carbine with the terminal punch of the 300 BLK. If my rifle produces that level of accuracy I will be more than happy.

 

[tranman]

How accurate are subsonic loads with your rifle 2bad4u2? Savage said they had good accuracy with the lighter faster loads, which correspond with your groupings. Maybe post some results with some 220 gr bullet subsonic rounds? I'd be interested to know since I've been thinking about making a .300aac AR upper.

 

[2bad4u2]

How accurate are subsonic loads with your rifle 2bad4u2? Savage said they had good accuracy with the lighter faster loads, which correspond with your groupings. Maybe post some results with some 220 gr bullet subsonic rounds? I'd be interested to know since I've been thinking about making a .300aac AR upper.

Great question.

I've just started playing with subsonics. I have around (200) Hornady 220gr. RN bullets on hand to play with. Some individuals are reporting really lousy subsonic accuracy with this bullet and my initial results have been consitent with that. I've had vertical stringing that hasn't been to my liking at all. So far, I've used 10gr. of Lil Gun & 9.9gr. H110. I really need to get my chronograph out and start using it. Especially, with loading for subsonic velocities.

There's a lot of guys using the 208gr. Hornady A-MAX with absolutely steller results. I'd like to get a box to try but I don't think they're something I want to shoot every day due to excessive cost.

For me, the 200gr. Lapua FMJ subsonic bullet is a better choice as it is available to me locally and it's the same price. It's a purpose built bullet and will stabilize with no difficulties in the Blackout.

Ideally, I want to develop a heavy cast bullet subsonic load that will be reasonably accurate. If it came it at 1-1.5 MOA @ 100 yds. I'd be plenty happy with that. I bought a 4-cavity 247gr. mold out of the US that was made specifically for subsonic use. I haven't had the time to start casting with it but look to do so at some point this spring/summer.

 

[Underthegun]

Great question.

I've just started playing with subsonics. I have around (200) Hornady 220gr. RN bullets on hand to play with. Some individuals are reporting really lousy subsonic accuracy with this bullet and my initial results have been consitent with that. I've had vertical stringing that hasn't been to my liking at all. So far, I've used 10gr. of Lil Gun & 9.9gr. H110. I really need to get my chronograph out and start using it. Especially, with loading for subsonic velocities.

There's a lot of guys using the 208gr. Hornady A-MAX with absolutely steller results. I'd like to get a box to try but I don't think they're something I want to shoot every day due to excessive cost.

For me, the 200gr. Lapua FMJ subsonic bullet is a better choice as it is available to me locally and it's the same price. It's a purpose built bullet and will stabilize with no difficulties in the Blackout.

Ideally, I want to develop a heavy cast bullet subsonic load that will be reasonably accurate. If it came it at 1-1.5 MOA @ 100 yds. I'd be plenty happy with that. I bought a 4-cavity 247gr. mold out of the US that was made specifically for subsonic use. I haven't had the time to start casting with it but look to do so at some point this spring/summer.

So your results match Savages results? (accurate at normal velocity and not as much when sub-sonic)

 

[2bad4u2]

So your results match Savages results? (accurate at normal velocity and not as much when sub-sonic)

I didn't say that. Who knows what Savage did or didn't test? I suspect that any manufacturer would only use SAAMI approved factory ammunition during its tests. If that's the case, Savage likely used the Remington Subsonic 220gr. SMK load as it's one of the few that's commercially available.

Incidently, some users have posted that initial lots of this ammo is not consistently subsonic in all rifles. Some are subs while you might get the odd round go supersonic. This kind of inconsistency demonstrates that not all ammo will perform the same in every rifle.

If Savage was testing this ammo in 20" 1:10" twist barrels, I can almost gaurantee you poor results. Not enough twst to stabilize the bullet and rounds that start out supersonic and quickly de-stabilize as they go subsonic.

Sounds like a recipe for trouble to me.

Like I said, I'm limited to what I currently have on hand and I knew that particular bullet hasn't had favorable results at subsonic velocities. I'm just dickin' around with it to see if I can make it work. I don't have an invested interest in the matter one way or another. If they don't work out then that's fine. I simply won't buy more of those bullets.

As mentioned, the 208gr. A-Max & 220gr. SMK (among others) are known quantities as far as subsonic accuracy is concerned. In fact, the .300 Blackout was designed around the 220gr. SMK subsonic load to reliably feed in AR magazines.

 

[Ranger Dave]

Seems like a useless round to me. I have no idea why anyone would ever want one. Thats just me and my 2 cents.

 

[2bad4u2]

Seems like a useless round to me. I have no idea why anyone would ever want one. Thats just me and my 2 cents.

To each their own. Is it for everyone? Hell no! However, it's ballistically similar to (2) of the most popular .30 cal. rounds in use today - .30-30 Winchester & 7.62x39mm. Would you call those cartridges "useless"?

The Blackout is a very versatile cartridge and can use the full range of .30 cal. bullets from 90gr. Hornady XTP's to 240gr. SMK's and everything in between. With a 1:8" twist barrel, stability is seldom an issue.

One of the few drawbacks is the lack of jacketed bullets capable of expanding reliably at near subsonic velocities. From my understanding, those will be comming to market at some point in the near future. For general hunting use, .30-30 bullets would be fine.

 

[tranman]

If silencers ever became legal in Canada, I would bet you'd see a lot more people jumping on 300aac.

 

[Ranger Dave]

With average accuracy and not much power, in this country, I really seen no use for it. The 30-30 is well established and same with the 7.62x39. I wouldnt call them useless but I sure wouldn't spend money on a custom percision build for either. Of all the new rounds that have come out over the last decade or so, I believe this will be one that would will not be seeing in a few years. To each their own and once again, just my 2 cents.

 

[mmattockx]

Seems like a useless round to me. I have no idea why anyone would ever want one. Thats just me and my 2 cents.

With average accuracy and not much power, in this country, I really seen no use for it. The 30-30 is well established and same with the 7.62x39. I wouldnt call them useless but I sure wouldn't spend money on a custom percision build for either. Of all the new rounds that have come out over the last decade or so, I believe this will be one that would will not be seeing in a few years. To each their own and once again, just my 2 cents.

I think you are mostly correct, given the firearms regulatory regime in this country at the moment. If we were allowed unrestricted use of the AR platform away from ranges (ie - hunting) and use of suppressors then it would make much more sense.

As it is, 300 Blackout / Whisper is a very small niche cartridge with limited practical uses for most Canadian shooters.


Mark

 

[2bad4u2]

With average accuracy and not much power, in this country, I really seen no use for it. The 30-30 is well established and same with the 7.62x39. I wouldnt call them useless but I sure wouldn't spend money on a custom percision build for either. Of all the new rounds that have come out over the last decade or so, I believe this will be one that would will not be seeing in a few years. To each their own and once again, just my 2 cents.

Regardless of what cartridge you wish to own, if you want to have a fast twist .30 cal. barrel, it's going to be an aftermarket item.

This cartridge has been around in one way or another commercially since the early 1990's. I doubt it's going away any time soon. The fact that a company paid to have it standardized only ensures that it will continue for years to come.

It's going over huge stateside in the AR marketplace. Where we can't hunt here with AR's, it's hard to say how popular it will become. As a PDW round, it's hard to beat.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[na1lb0hm]

It's a shame the conversion for XCR's are no longer offered.

I don't think it's going to go away any time soon, the 6.8 on the other hand, might.