300gr. Bullets For 358 Winchester

Super Scout

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Came across a photo copy made from a loading manual (page 116 and 117)displaying loads with assorted bullet weights, powders and corresponding velocities. I've only ever come across bullet weights for this cartridge of 250 grains. This page has a bullet of 300 grains with a max velocity of 2208 ft/sec. I believe this is from a Barnes manual as it states "...wide range of .358-inch bullets offered by Barnes,....
Checking the Barnes site I was unable to find any info on a 300 gr bullet for the .358 Has anyone ever used or seen a bullet for this cartridge of this weight in Canada???
 
300 Barnes

The 300gr Round Nose Soft Point Barnes Originals in .358 are no longer made. I have a small supply. The jacket thickness on mine is specified as .049" - good for Rhinos I think. I believe a thinner jacket version was available too. They measure 1.354 long and have alot of lead exposed at the tip. Ballist. Coef.- .371
 
I've experimented by making a few 300 grain .35 calibre bullets, but I've never tried loading them in my .358 Win. They are very long bullets. One is about 1.3 inches long, and the other almost 1.5". With bullets of those lengths, and the constraints of cartridge OAL for them to work in my BLR, I doubt that I could get enough powder in a case to (safely) give me anything like 2200 fps. A blunt round-nosed bullet would be shorter than mine, however.
 
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How does the bullet length of those biggies match up with the rate of twist in those barrels? Would the bullet stabilize and stay that way out yonder?
 
Super Scout said:
Checking the Barnes site I was unable to find any info on a 300 gr bullet for the .358 Has anyone ever used or seen a bullet for this cartridge of this weight in Canada???
As someone has already pointed out, they did exist at one time. Woodleigh still makes a 310 gr. soft nose. My best guess is that they proved to be not that popular because there wasn't anything they would do that a 250 grain or 225 grain bullet wouldn't do just as well in North America where most .35 caliber rifles are found.

If a really heavy bullet tickles your fancy, I would take that CAD drawing I sent you, extend the shank a bit, flatten the meplat out even more so (use something like a 3.5 caliber ogive), and that should give you something in the area of 300 grains and in a LFN style bullet. Should be short enough that twist will be just fine, not merely marginal. Given the top velocities you will have available in the .358 with that bullet weight, a cast bullet won't be giving up anything to a jacketed bullet.

If you wanted to get really technical about it, then heat treat WW until you're at around BHN 28 - 32, then stand the bullets in water and run a torch over the noses to draw the temper so the noses are much softer.
 
Rick said:
If you wanted to get really technical about it, then heat treat WW until you're at around BHN 28 - 32, then stand the bullets in water and run a torch over the noses to draw the temper so the noses are much softer.

What a great idea! Sure sounds a lot simpler than double cast bullets.

I'm sure you have tried this on game. Can you elaborate? I am very interested in giving this a go.

How much of the bullet do you leave exposed above the water when tempering the noses?

Please excuse the hijack, Super Scout. Maybe Rick will start a new thread on this.

Ted
 
How does the bullet length of those biggies match up with the rate of twist in those barrels? Would the bullet stabilize and stay that way out yonder?
Our mutual friend B. Mitchell shoots the 300gr Barnes Originals I describe above at 2200MV using H414 out of his 350RemMag (not a max load) which has a 1 in 16 twist. He reports excellent accuracy so I would think it is stabilized - at least out to his target (100yds. at least).
 
john-brennan said:
The 358 Win could not get 2200fps with a 300gr bullet.
Well, yeah, it can and does. I expect those kind of energy level offend many users of .338 Winchester Magnums and similar cartridges who are burning a lot more powder to get not a lot more velocity. But it can and is done.

Paco Kelly's loads for the 358009 Lyman (depending on alloy, drops somewhere between 285 - 295 grains) in the .358 Winchester gave 2350 fps out of a 24" barrel. Kelly has wrote of shooting truckloads of game with that bullet and combination. I think one of his loads to achieve that was something like 51 grains of A2520. Other loads he uses to achieve this use Reloader 7 - which is a top velocity getter with many of the .358 offerings.

I would expect those are on the raggedy edge of pressure limits and depend on a chamber that allows a bullet to be loaded out somewhat, resulting in a bit more case capacity. And cast bullets don't build pressures quite as fast as jacketed bullets.

I don't see a need for a 300 grain bullet in the .358 myself, and I'd certainly work up the loads with care if I was doing that, but I think from what others are doing quite safely out there it is indeed possible to get 2200 fps with a 300 grain bullet in a .358.
 
Why not? said:
Please excuse the hijack, Super Scout. Maybe Rick will start a new thread on this.
There's not much to it.

You heat treat WW cast bullets in the oven. I believe I have posted heat treatment tables here several times before, but they are a ##### to configure right in appearance. Immediately after quenching i.e. within a few hours, size/gascheck and lube. With a bullet that has a big flat meplate, I think you are probably good to go just as you are; they won't deform much (depending on velocity at impact), but they'll do a good job anyways.

If you want to soften up the noses somewhat to make them more likely to expand, stand your tempered bullets in ice water up until you are about a third of the way into the ogive. Then run a butane torch over the nose until they are just below slump temperature and then allow to cool. It's a bit of a trial and error thing - you can heat a couple until the noses slump while timing it, or look for the change in appearance.

What you will end up with is a bullet that has the original BHN in the base and the shank where it has to deal with the working pressure of the load, and a nose that is much softer and therefore deforms much more easily.

This is not my idea; it is a well known technique among the cast bullet affectionados. I'll post those tables once again, but I am going to put zero effort into formatting them yet again, so you will have to figure out the rows and columns yourself:

Common BHN measurements:
Pure lead 5 BHN
Wheel weights 8-13 BHN, composition varies
Lead/linotype 15 BHN, half and half
Linotype 22 BHN
40-1 Lead-tin 8.5 BHN
30-1 Lead-tin 9 BHN
20-1 Lead-tin 10 BHN
16-1 Lead-tin 11 BHN
10-1 Lead-tin 11.5 BHN
Lyman No. 2 15 BHN
Heat treated 25-35 BHN, varies with heat treat and age
Wheelweights

After 6 weeks, air cooled bullets will reach maximum hardness.
This hardness can be further increased by heat treating.

HEAT TREATING WHEELWEIGHTS
Heat treating wheel weight alloy is both controllable and predictable ie: It is possible to heat treat wheel weight bullets and predict the final hardness to be achieved.

Hardness does not increase until the quench temp (after a ½ hr heat soak) reaches 420 deg. F. as measured with a digital thermometer shaded from any direct radiant heat.

Temperature vs. Resulting Hardness

410 12 BHN
420 15 BHN
430 17 BHN
440 23 BHN
450 29 BHN

Conclusions:
Exceeding 450 did not cause any significant increase in hardness.

460 deg was very close (read that too close) to the plastic deformation stage of the alloy

OPTIMAL HARDNESS FOR OPERATING PRESSURE OF LOAD

Tensile strength of lead/lead alloys = BHN x 480

Best bullet performance is usually at pressures between 3 and 4 times
Tensile strength.

ALLOY BHN TENSILE STRENGH (PSI) TIMES 3 GIVES
MIN. CHAMBER PRESSURE (PSI) TIMES 4 GIVES
MAX. CHAMBER PRESSURE (PSI)
PURE LEAD 5 5(480)=2400 7,200 9,600
1-20 Pb/Sn 10 10(480)=4800 14,400 19,200
WHEEL WEIGHTS 12 12(480)=5760 17,280 22,040
LYMAN #2 15 15(480)=7200 21,600 28,800
LINOTYPE 22 22(480)=10560 31,680 42,240
HEAT TREATED WHEEL WEIGHTS 30 30(480)=14400 43,200 57,600


VELOCITY REQUIRED TO EXPAND OR DEFORM VARIOUS HARDNESSES

BHN MINIMUM TERMINAL VELOCITY HOLLOW POINTS*
5 (Pure lead) 1200 fps. 700 fps.
8 1300 fps. 800 fps.
10 1400 fps. 900 fps.
14-15 1500 fps. NR
18 1900 fps. NR
20 2200 fps. NR
30-35 2400 fps. NR

NR - Not recommended for game shooting because of extreme destructiveness. Good for varminting, though.

* - Hollow point size and bullet nose shape affect required terminal velocity greatly, so these can only be considered approximations. Hollow points are best used with pure lead or tin-lead alloys as even small amounts of antimony cause bullet break-up. If antimony alloys are used, do not exceed 1 ½ % antimony or 10 BHN.
 
Why not? said:
Thanks very much, Rick!

I am going to give this a try with some of my Lyman 311284 thirty cal bulets.
You're welcome: getting bullet hardness right for the operating pressure of your load goes a long way towards eliminating leading (although bullet fit to ball seat/throat is still the most important thing in my books) and maximum velocity/accuracy.

Stove ovens regulate temperature very poorly. I try to minimize that by putting lots of brick in the oven and letting the oven sit for about an hour before the bullets go in. It seems to minimize the temperature highs and lows as the heating element cycles - I doubt the wife's oven has all that accurate a thermostat in it.

You can buy a fairly cheap electric thermometer with a probe that goes in the oven, a thermometer that goes in the oven (the accurate ones seem to be a bit pricy), or just use some of the Temperil markers and fluids selected for the temperature you're looking for. Your choice.
 
My Lyman #44 from 1967 gives a top velocity for a 275 grain jacketed out of a 358 Win. with a 22 inch barrel as 2079 fps.. if that were a cast 275 gr bullet you might get 2150 fps with the same powder load. I don't think you'll get 2400 fps with a 300 cast even with 26 inch barrel...

If you'd like to have soft nose with hard shank bullets you can also do what most others have done for past 30+ years and cast your bullet with the nose of lead and the other 70% out of linotype or wheelweights and water quench...

I use 2 Lee Bottom pour production pots one with lead and one with shank alloy....depending on what weight your casting you can use various sized empty cartridge cases (pistol) with heavy wire wrapped around rim area to form a handle for this dipper. If the case is to long just trim it until you get it to hold the amount you want as the nose portion. Dump dipper full of lead into mould and then a few seconds later add the harder alloy from the other pot.

Back in the 1970's and probably before that some mould companies used to sell a two cavity model ..one for the shaped bullet you wanted to cast and the other small cavity was just for the nose part.. that way you had your regular bullet or you could just drop in the smallish nose portion made of lead into your regular cavity and then add harder shank material...that was not ideal, but it worked if you preheated the precast noses on the rim of the pot rather than dropping them in the mould cold..


hs45/70.......your mileage may vary
 
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