.303 Br hornady load seems mild

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tletang

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Hi All,
I reloaded some 174gr fmj/bt(#3131 Hornady) for my pattern 1914 enfield. The min/max loads listed in the hornady manual were 31.6gr-39.1gr Varget. I used 37gr Varget and the load felt very mild, not a lot of recoil, low pressure signs on the primers and I had to adjust the ladder sight up to the 600m mark to get it to hit the gong at 200m. I had some IVI SP ammo that did not require nearly as much sight adjustment to be on at that range. I referenced some other manuals and for 174-180gr bullets most other manuals list 38gr-42gr Varget. Just wondering what you guys think, should I try slowly working my way up to 42gr Varget listed in other manuals if there are no pressure signs or should absolutely stick to the 39.1gr max listed in the Hornady manual for this bullet? The rifle the Hornady manual lists as their test rifle is the #4mk2, from what I understand the Enfield pattern 1914 is a much stronger action than the #4mk2, I'm thinking this is why the loads listed in the Hornady manual may be lower than the other manuals.

Thanks
 
Most US companies list neutered loads for many European cartridges. It's common with .303 British, 8x57mm, 7x57mm, 9.3x62mm, etc. They are more concerned with liability than performance since the loads (factory ammo or data) could find its way into an old, poorly maintained, dangerous firearm.

I'd go with the hotter loads, especially in a P14. I wouldn't even do it too slowly; just load up in .5gr increments and keep going until you get stiff extractions or reach the max published velocity (if you have a chronograph like Gunnerlove mentioned).
 
I have a cheapo chrony sitting around somewhere, I'll drag it out and check velocities next time. The felt recoil was much lower than the IVI SP ammo I was also shooting in that rifle that day. Thanks for all the help so far.
 
tletang said:
Hi All,
I reloaded some 174gr fmj/bt(#3131 Hornady) for my pattern 1914 enfield. The min/max loads listed in the hornady manual were 31.6gr-39.1gr Varget. I used 37gr Varget and the load felt very mild, not a lot of recoil, low pressure signs on the primers and I had to adjust the ladder sight up to the 600m mark to get it to hit the gong at 200m. I had some IVI SP ammo that did not require nearly as much sight adjustment to be on at that range. I referenced some other manuals and for 174-180gr bullets most other manuals list 38gr-42gr Varget. Just wondering what you guys think, should I try slowly working my way up to 42gr Varget listed in other manuals if there are no pressure signs or should absolutely stick to the 39.1gr max listed in the Hornady manual for this bullet? The rifle the Hornady manual lists as their test rifle is the #4mk2, from what I understand the Enfield pattern 1914 is a much stronger action than the #4mk2, I'm thinking this is why the loads listed in the Hornady manual may be lower than the other manuals.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Refer to Hodgdon's load data site for any Varget data. Hornady and Sierra manual's Varget data is lame.
 
I'm running 41-41.5 gr. of Varget driving 174 gr. Matchkings, out of my No4. If I do the o-ring trick with virgin brass, and size using a collet die, I get between 5 and 6 loads per casing.
This load is so close to following the rear sight markings out to about 450yds., after that its a touch flatter shooting.

Your P-14 should handle similar loadings easier than my rear locking single lug No4.

Straight off of Hodgdon's site:

0DEF2D68-9541-409B-A3D4-231BC19A244F-554-0000013E8DA42FE6_zps5e60ippz.jpg
 
In my P14, [Remington] I work up to 308 Winchester loads carefully.

Case capacity of the 303 British and the 308 Winchester is near identical.
So with the strong, front-locking P14, I have often found 308 loads work just fine, and give the velocities that I like to see.

For example, one of my pet loads in my P14 is the 180 Sierra Pro-Hunter [FB Spitzer] with 45 grains of IMR 4320.

Do NOT use this type of load in a LEE-Enfield rifle!!!

Regards, Dave.
 
Like Lefty #### says, 37 grains of Varget is below current minimum for a 174. Manuals do vary though. Possible that when Hornady did their tests they had a different powder lot.
Case capacity of either the 303 British and the 308 Winchester is irrelevant. Loading .303's with .308 data is unsafe. .308 runs at 50,000 plus PSI. .303 MAXES at 46,500 PSI.
 
Ganderite said:
With a P14 you can go hotter. two scoops....
Click to expand...

LUTNIT said:
Most US companies list neutered loads for many European cartridges. It's common with .303 British, 8x57mm, 7x57mm, 9.3x62mm, etc. They are more concerned with liability than performance since the loads (factory ammo or data) could find its way into an old, poorly maintained, dangerous firearm.

I'd go with the hotter loads, especially in a P14. I wouldn't even do it too slowly; just load up in .5gr increments and keep going until you get stiff extractions or reach the max published velocity (if you have a chronograph like Gunnerlove mentioned).
Click to expand...

Sunray's usual comments, based on nothing but what he reads, and then throws out a guess, fly in the face of those made by reloaders with experience. Dave.
 
Eagleye said:
In my P14, [Remington] I work up to 308 Winchester loads carefully.

Case capacity of the 303 British and the 308 Winchester is near identical.
So with the strong, front-locking P14, I have often found 308 loads work just fine, and give the velocities that I like to see.

For example, one of my pet loads in my P14 is the 180 Sierra Pro-Hunter [FB Spitzer] with 45 grains of IMR 4320.

Do NOT use this type of load in a LEE-Enfield rifle!!!

Regards, Dave.
Click to expand...

This.
 
As stated by others the load data is reduced for the .303 British because of all the older Enfield rifles still being used. Lefty #### posted the max load at the Hodgdon's site as 42 grains of Varget at 43,800 CUP. The max rated pressure for the .303 British is 46,000 CUP or 49,000 PSI and the No.4 was later chambered for the .308/7.62 at 62,000 PSI.

Our American M1917 (P14) Enfield rifle was chambered for the 30-06 at 60,000 psi. The weakest link in your P14 is the American brass designed around the lower pressures of 43,000 CUP. I would suggest using Prvi Partizan cases for reloading, they have thicker rims, the base of the case is larger in diameter and the base of the case is .010 thicker than any other case on the market. (The Prvi cases are built Ford Truck Tough)
:cheers:

Below are some very good tips, BUT also remember the base expansion is also governed by brass hardness. Meaning the soft American cases will show more expansion than the harder and thicker Prvi cases.

Simple Trick for Monitoring Pressure of Your Rifle Reloads

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/tips-and-tricks/simple-trick-monitoring-pressure-your-rifle-reloads

Example below, stretched primer pockets and the brass flowing into the ejector in the bolt face means you have reached the elastic limits of the brass and its time to back off the load. And many of you know Federal is known for soft brass and Lapua and military cases are made of much harder brass.

EjectorMark_01_zpsa4790106.jpg
 
Wow thanks for all the information, I'm going to work up my loads up to 42gr watching for pressure signs. I have a lot of commercial brass, no Prvi Partizan but I do have a lot of IVI, from what I understand it is military and also has a thicker brass than commercial.
 
tletang said:
Wow thanks for all the information, I'm going to work up my loads up to 42gr watching for pressure signs. I have a lot of commercial brass, no Prvi Partizan but I do have a lot of IVI, from what I understand it is military and also has a thicker brass than commercial.
Click to expand...

I am using IVI brass in my 2 - P14 rifles. [and my Ross 1910]....it is pretty tough brass! Dave.
 
Below both .303 British cases were fired in the same No.4 Enfield rifle, as you can see the HXP case was smaller in diameter and also thinner in the base web area. It is my understanding that Prvi had contracts to produce ammunition for a few third world countries that still used .303 machineguns. Meaning that Prvi is making military grade cases and the thicker rims and thicker base are great for us reloaders.

privihxp-1_zpsdb98083e.jpg


Below is a once fired factory loaded Winchester .303 British case, and it stretched .009 on the first firing and started to separate on the third firing. The rifles headspace was set at .066 but these cases had a rim thickness of .058. Meaning Winchester cases are the worst of all .303 British cases.

IMGP4521-1_zpsa603b8a2.jpg


I use a advanced bent paper clip for checking for thinning in the base web area.

IMGP5204-1_zps5590eee6.jpg
 
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Eagleye said:
In my P14, [Remington] I work up to 308 Winchester loads carefully.

Case capacity of the 303 British and the 308 Winchester is near identical.
So with the strong, front-locking P14, I have often found 308 loads work just fine, and give the velocities that I like to see.

For example, one of my pet loads in my P14 is the 180 Sierra Pro-Hunter [FB Spitzer] with 45 grains of IMR 4320.

Do NOT use this type of load in a LEE-Enfield rifle!!!

Regards, Dave.
Click to expand...

I agree completely. I could not have said this better myself.
 
If you want heavy duty brass for the 303, Higginsons has Herters (Svenska Metallverken) for $16.50/50. Look under the Winchester price lists on their website.
About as thick and heavy as it gets.
Edit...weighed a few out, Herters were 180gr new unfired/unprimed. IVI fired with primer were 180gr. Remington were 165gr, fired once, and huge buldge/ring around the head....forgot I had the Remington, it's going in the trash lol
 
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