303 Brass Head separation question

Rick

The PPU brass was reloaded from purchased ammo, so i know it was fired in my rifle only, 3 times. The first time it was FL sized, the second and 3rd NS. The Winchester was purchased once fired (i am taking sellers honest about this, it was purchased with imperial brass, not used yet) so second time its FL and NS 3rd time.

I was just asking about the lines inside the brass to see if its some sort of indicator that the brass is failing, i purchased a lot of winchester and imperail (once fired) and can check inside the cases.
 
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f55 - maybe review previous posts - the case head separation issue gets started, and can not be reversed, the very first time the cartridge is fired. No way I have ever heard how to undo it - that first firing did it - for example, a factory cartridge fired once. And because of the variety in 303 British chamber sizes, can not really expect a random fired brass from another rifle to fit your chamber. Maybe you have got a 1 or 2 time reload situation with all that previously fired stuff - and will likely want to acquire a broken case extractor to take out with your rifle. The sure sign is a ring or groove inside the case just ahead of the solid case head - just a pointy paper clip with about a 1/8" bend at the end is all that is needed to feel it.
 
f55 - maybe review previous posts - the case head separation issue gets started, and can not be reversed, the very first time the cartridge is fired. No way I have ever heard how to undo it - that first firing did it - for example, a factory cartridge fired once. And because of the variety in 303 British chamber sizes, can not really expect a random fired brass from another rifle to fit your chamber. Maybe you have got a 1 or 2 time reload situation with all that previously fired stuff - and will likely want to acquire a broken case extractor to take out with your rifle. The sure sign is a ring or groove inside the case just ahead of the solid case head - just a pointy paper clip with about a 1/8" bend at the end is all that is needed to feel it.

I dont expect case head separation to be reversed, i have a broken case extractor and have tried the paper clip method to check.
 
Rick

The PPU brass was reloaded from purchased ammo, so i know it was fired in my rifle only, 3 times.

With the Lee Enfield in particular, the first firing is the key. With factory ammo, you either accept that as is because that factory ammo has most value because you like it's performance as is. Or you pull the bullets and charges, and load them in fireformed cases with your seating die set to the original O.A.L. cartridge length. Either pre-formed other cases, or use a method to fire form the PPU brass first.

I bought a whack of one lot of 1960's Greek HXP surplus ammo 30 years ago because the DCRA guys at the time were praising it, and it was dirt cheap. I used it to select the most accurate Long Branch from a lot of new ones that Districorp apparently found over in Belgium. The one I kept was extremely accurate with that ball, but I also wanted to get as much life as possible out of that brass.

So I knew what the rifle would group ten rounds of that ball at my local 300 yard range. I pulled down ten of the rounds, applied a false shoulder, reloaded with the original powder and bullet, and then fired that for comparison. The grouping wasn't quite as good - but not very far off. And I was happy because I had rounds good enough for at the very least practice, and primo fire formed brass to use with my commercial 174gr bullets and worked up loads.

So if you prize the brass, it's a pain in the ass, but you can pull the ammunition down, apply a false shoulder (or do the O-ring thing), and probably still get as good or almost as good target accuracy out of the factory charge/bullet.

I don't know how readily available PPU empty cases are these days. I bought a whack of them a few years ago when they popped up for sale. And the HXP, mostly, is still going strong. The last time I saw it come up for sale they were asking and getting $1/round.

The first time it was FL sized, the second and 3rd NS. The Winchester was purchased once fired (i am taking sellers honest about this, it was purchased with imperial brass, not used yet) so second time its FL and NS 3rd time.

So as you probably know, you're already starting out behind the curve. Particularly with the apparently once fired Winchester, which for all you know was originally fired in a rifle long overdue for a new bolt head.

I was just asking about the lines inside the brass to see if its some sort of indicator that the brass is failing, i purchased a lot of winchester and imperail (once fired) and can check inside the cases.
If I wanted to ensure I got the best out of that used brass I would first see if it would even chamber at all in my rifle in it's current condition. If it does, then that probably tells you at least it wasn't fired in a rifle with a much larger chamber than yours has. If it won't, you'll have to size it back to where it will chamber. That should give you something similar to a crush fit after applying a false shoulder; good enough, because most of the damage has already been done on the initial firing on another rifle with an even larger chamber.

If it does chamber as is, then I would apply a false shoulder so that the brass would only chamber with a crush fit - limiting any further significant case stretch other than that of the original firing.

Finally, I would anneal the case necks for consistent neck tension as well as to get rid of any case neck hardening that could lead to cracked case necks.

For checking inside the necks, I use the probe/pick from the RCBS dial indicator comparator tool to feel; not taking a look inside. If you ask your dentist nice, they will give you their dental picks or explorers or what they call them that they're about to throw out, those are nice and rigid to check for developing case head separations. Maybe like you do I should look as well (but my senior citizen eyesight sucks), but I haven't had a case head failure when I discard any case that fails the probe scratch test. If I saw those rings in your pics, I'd probably junk those cases. And maybe section them to see what was inside.

The RCBS dial indicator measurement tool may well be over the top for people who have less exacting standards to reach the point of fun with their rifles. But (as a relevant example), it can not only be used to detect the beginnings of case head separation, but give comparative readings for different brass from different manufacturers from the neck all the way to the web, at pretty much the exact same spot on all pieces of brass measured.



That happens to be a piece of new PPU .303 British brass from a lot I was applying a false shoulder to prior to first firing. You can see what looks like a little bulge before the actual factory shoulder that results from running (in this case an NOI neck expander die - great product and very inexpensive) a larger caliber neck expander die in the mouth, and then using a case mouth resizing die to size the false shoulder back to where the case will finally chamber again with a crush fit. As it was just sitting there, I just popped it into the tool for a picture.

While I was at it, I also put some 1968 HXP cases on the probe as well... They measure within a thou or two at the same point along the length of the case. (the dial indicator measurement changes a bit as you rotate the case 360 degrees around the probe, of course). These aren't also micrometer type accuracy measurements, but (this is a guess) accurate to about +/- .0015" - good enough for comparison purposes of wall thickness of different pieces of brass at the same point in the brass.

Might be way too anal and too much useless information for many people and what they're shooting and how they're shooting them. I find it useful. Not for every caliber, every rifle, and every kind of reloading, but it is regularly a useful tool to have on the bench.

The same techniques for case life/best fit also work for very experienced old rifles, like my Grandpop's old 1895 Winchester. I don't know what the bore measured when it was manufactured back in August of 1898 in 30 U.S. Now it has dimensions where bullets (jacketed or cast) intended for .303 British are far more accurate. Different issues, but same in that you don't want to unnecessarily size down/expand the case any more than necessary.



 
I dont expect case head separation to be reversed, i have a broken case extractor and have tried the paper clip method to check.

Cerrosafe will also remove the body of a separated case from the chamber.

This is where I should post "Ask me how I know".
 
Thanks for the info Rick, i will be checking the "once fired brass" to see if it chambers before resizing. I dont think i will need any more PPU brass for now, i have 100 PPU and about 400 win/imperial.
 
The problem with most American made cases is the base diameter is normally on the small side of manufacturing limits. And if you add the larger base diameter of the .303 British chamber it can cause the case to droop and lay in the bottom of the chamber. And when fired the case will warp and cause accuracy problems if the case is reloaded. And warped cases can be checked and found with a runout gauge.

I use the o-ring method because it helps center the rear of the case in the chamber. The downside of using the o-ring method is if the o-ring is too large it will cause hard bolt closing and possible bolt lug wear. So you must grease the bolt lugs and use a proper fitting o-ring, pony tail rubber bands or the small rubber bands used with dental braces. And the last problem is the extractor can cut the o-ring and cause it to split with use.

With Ricks false shoulder method it does help center the bullet in the throat and better bullet alignment with the bore. And if the false shoulder is large enough it should push the rear of the case flat against the bolt face and help center the rear of the case. With the false shoulder and a worn rifle with throat erosion, the false should is a good idea.

Modern rifles have a recessed bolt face that holds and centers the rear of the case. And the Enfield rifle does not have a recessed bolt face and can let the case lay in the bottom of the chamber.

I'm an American and a Canadian with the screen name of TerryinVictoria told me about the o-ring method in a Enfield forum. So pick the fireforming method that works best for you with the least amount of hassle.

And I will say Rick did a good job showing the false shoulder method that is a "mainstream" method of fireforming. In some forums if you bring up the o-ring method they will think your nuts and you will blow up your rifle.

The main reason I pushed the o-ring method was that another person was telling reloaders to lube their cases to fire form them. And this is a bad idea because it almost doubles your bolt thrust and over time increases your headspace.

So again pick the method that works best for you. And also remember warped cases can drive you nuts and without a runout gauge you will not know why your rifle is shooting shotgun size groups.

Below is the NECO case gauge and this web page talks about warped cases. And large diameter chambers and small diameter cases can warp a great deal.

NECO CONCENTRICITY, WALL THICKNESS AND RUNOUT GAUGE
https://www.neconos.com/case-gauge-info/

Also referred to as “The Case Gauge,” this item is designed to measure:

1) The curved “banana” shape of the cartridge case;
2) The relative wall thickness variation of a cartridge case;
3) The cartridge case head out-of-squareness;
4) Individual Bullets – out-of-round “egg shape” and/or
curved “banana” shape (excepting very small bullets);
5) The seated bullet and cartridge runout of loaded rounds. The accuracy of any firearm is determined — and limited — by the quality of the ammunition shot in it. The effect of imperfections in ammunition is cumulative; each flaw adds to the influence of all others. Precision shooters spend much time and effort “uniforming” cartridge cases, using advanced techniques to eliminate variation. Yet until recently, one of the most important of these variations has not been susceptible to detection by any device readily available to marksmen.


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Thanks for the info Rick, i will be checking the "once fired brass" to see if it chambers before resizing. I dont think i will need any more PPU brass for now, i have 100 PPU and about 400 win/imperial.

If you are looking for the best possible out of your Lee Enfield, fitting the brass to your chamber and having a sizing regime that keeps it best fitted is well worth the effort.

My Lee Enfield that was the pick of the litter from a crate of 1950 Long Branch rifles, new in the grease, has a very tight chamber as Lee Enfields go. Despite that, when you look at case to chamber fit, you can still see that there's still some excessive space there. A visual aid (sorry about the focus, I took the picture in the basement with my steam powered old cellphone)



From the left: a Greek HXP 68 ball round, a fired HXP 68 ball round from the same lot, a new out of the bag PPU casing, an unfired PPU case with false shoulder applied, a loaded numerous times HXP case.

Even with a really, really tight chamber, look at the differences in the shoulder position.

A set of NOE's neck expanders can really help with optimal neck tension, as well as a much bigger one to expand the neck in order to apply a false shoulder.




In my rifle with my dies, I need to expand the neck to at least .33" before the neck sizer will establish enough of a false shoulder so that you can hold the case under tension between the chamber shoulder at the front and the bolt face at the rear. If you also go the cast bullet route for your Lee Enfield, neck expanders to get the right fit to the case neck really make life a lot easier (and sometimes make a huge difference in accuracy). I think they're about $6/each; you just stick them in an inexpensive Lee universal expanding die.

For sorting out case life issues, prolonging case life, etc there's some other useful tools to have on your bench:



The RCBS Casemaster tool or something similar for all kinds of measurements, detecting bullet runout, case irregularities, comparing cases, checking for incipient case head separations, etc...

An alcohol lamp for annealing case necks is dirt cheap. I think I only paid about $11 for this one, mail order, about 20+ years ago. Made in Taiwan I think, but the concept is no different than a kerosene lamp; nothing complex. I use alcohol gas stabilizer to fuel it - used to use white gas backpacking fuel, but this is a little less sooty with alcohol.

And pin gauges in .0005-" increments are a bit of a luxury, but can help with case neck I.D. after sizing, pinning the bore on a rifle (whether because it's a five groove barrel, whether you wonder if the barrel is consistent from end to end, or you need to know bore dimension just in front of the throat because you're contemplating a bore riding nose cast bullet design)
 
Thanks again Rick, I checked the brass (not all of course) but a batch from Winchester and from Imperial . The imperial chamber and bolt closes with a little effort, with the Winchester the bolt dosnt close unless i neck side and even then its a bit more pressure to close.
 
I use the o-ring method because it helps center the rear of the case in the chamber. The downside of using the o-ring method is if the o-ring is too large it will cause hard bolt closing and possible bolt lug wear. So you must grease the bolt lugs and use a proper fitting o-ring, pony tail rubber bands or the small rubber bands used with dental braces. And the last problem is the extractor can cut the o-ring and cause it to split with use.

I opted for false shoulders for a couple of reasons. First, I believe (without having done anything to prove it either way) there is no chance of the case not being centered in the chamber using this method, nor of the case "drooping" or otherwise off axis in the chamber, as I think it could be using an O-ring. Second, my chamber is tight enough that it takes a really small cross section diameter O-ring before the bolt will close on a case with an O-ring. And I don't want to get into greasing lugs and other stuff.

The main reason I pushed the o-ring method was that another person was telling reloaders to lube their cases to fire form them. And this is a bad idea because it almost doubles your bolt thrust and over time increases your headspace.

A now-gone friend of mine, who probably pulled as many triggers on more kinds of guns with reloads as anybody else, Ken Mollohan fireformed brass. HOWEVER, he did it with cases filled with cream of wheat, not with a bullet seated. I never did that myself, but Molly was one of the foremost fonts of cast bullet knowledge around when he died a few years ago. As picky as Molly was about guns, reloads, and not abusing either, I'm pretty sure the way he did it was right.

However, wanting to control how a new case fits in a Lee Enfield chamber, or some old experienced rifle, is really different than taking cases meant for one caliber of gun and turning them into casings for a completely different chambering. They are two very different things - or at least I believe they are.
 
Thanks again Rick, I checked the brass (not all of course) but a batch from Winchester and from Imperial . The imperial chamber and bolt closes with a little effort, with the Winchester the bolt dosnt close unless i neck side and even then its a bit more pressure to close.

So (if you're anal like me and chasing the best), to quote Clint Eastwood "Do you feel lucky"????

It MIGHT be tight because the shoulder of your mystery brass is in fact already touching the shoulder portion of your chamber as you close the bolt. i.e. the brass is in fact headspacing on the shoulder as the bolt closes as you want it to be. That's probably the case.

HOWEVER... it might have been fired in a rifle with a really oversize body portion of the chamber, a chamber slightly oval shaped, etc. And the resistance you're feeling isn't the bolt camming the case shoulder up against the shoulder portion of the chamber - but instead, an overly big body of the case starting to stick with friction against the walls of the chamber... and the case shoulder is still nowhere near touching the shoulder portion of the chamber.

If you really want to make sure you're getting your newly acquired brass a good start, you can put a false shoulder in, followed by a full length sizing adjusted down until you just get a crush fit on bolt closure.

I say that because you're having incipient case separations after, what? Three reloads? Properly fitted brass shouldn't fail that quickly.
 
Some rifles have looser chambers then others
This directly affects the condition of the brass, even once fired brass
The #4 Enfield I sold had a really good chamber in it I got 6 plus loadings on the cases
I’ve heard of rifles blowing up brass after 2 or three loadings

And some, who own P-14s like me, almost never toss out brass. I have never had a case separation and the cases that I have tossed have been for split necks, not the "ring of death" indicating a separation.
 
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