303 British / .308 / 30-06 Discovery???

Why not? said:
Yessirree Bob, and I know more than one guy who has loaded the 220 gr Sierra .308" round nose in his Lee-Enfield when there were no more 215 gr .311" bullets available. :)

Ted
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I do that for my dad for his trapline. At 50 yards they're deadly accurate and they hit as hard as anything I can find in 303 British.
 
CIL used to make bullets for the 303Brit that were packed in nice little, red plastic, partitioned trays and were in green/red cartons, 50/carton. The late Les Viel, of Vernon, BC used to stock them in various weights and diameters. They were available in weights from 150grn to 225grn and from .310 to .314 diameter. Les loved the 303 British.

I have several north American loaded 303 cartridges that were loaded by different manufacturers, including red striped boxes of Defence Industries Ltd. out of Montreal. All of the US makers bullet diameters measure .308, while the DIL measure out at .312. Supposedly the DIL ammunition is loaded to tighter standards and is regulated for special purposes. That's the popular rumor anyway.
I can understand the US makers loading with .308 diameter bullets for the plain simple reason being that is what they were set up for and just didn't want to mix things up on their own end when they switched over to 30-06 production. Definitely a huge saving in time and hassle for very little difference in down range performance.

As far as barrel diameters go, I recently picked up a Pakistani No4 MkII. It has a .310 bore and will shoot either .308 or Hornady .312 diameter bullets equally well. It prompted me to check out a couple of other bore diameters in different marks of Lee Enfields. I measured a Lee Speed, with gain twist rifling, .311, a No1 MkIII 1911, .310, No1 MkIII*, 1918, .315, a No1 MkIII* 1922, .312, a No1 MkIII* 1942 Lithgow, .317, a 1950 Long Branch, .310 and last, a 1943 Savage, 2 groove, .309.

My measuring instruments are made by Starrett and have zeroing pieces included in the set.

I used Cerrosafe to cast the bores.

Nothing new here at all from what others tell me and nothing unusual either. The diameters are all within specs, give or take a thou, and I really doubt there is a company in the world, now or earlier that would scrap a run of barrels for .001 out of spec, especially during war time conditions. The same can be said for the manufacture of bullets. It definitely shows why some 303 rifles digest .308 diameter bullets and perform so well with them. The fact that Savage and Long Branch barrels were shipped in large quantities to the UK during WWII would also explain the smaller diameters found on many UK built No 4 rifles as well.

One other thing, the barrel on the Lithgow was replaced during an FTR and is as new, even though it has the largest bore diameter.
 
Enfield rifling has lands the same size as the grooves so the average diameter is less than a more standard rifling. The British did that so as to have longer lasting barrel accuracy.It might help with the 308 bullets as well. just a thought
 
I have been shooting .308 bullets in Enfields for years. :eek:

Going back to my DCRA days (Dominion of Canada Rifle Association), it was done all the time.

Many team members of the NRA, British NRA that is, shot the same at Bisley.

Nosler 165 grn Ballistic tips, wow, those suckers worked flawless @ 600 yds.

The trick, which is no trick, use a .303 die set with .308 neck expander in the F/L or Neck size die.

We experimented with 2 up to 6 groove barrels, all shot excellent.
 
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I have an old surplus round I saved for display. It's headstamped GB1943 VII(British manufacturer, Mark 7 ball) with a cupro-nickle jacketed bullet. This thread got me curious, so I measured it. It's 0.308" in diameter. I suppose it's possible the bullet was made in the US, then shipped to the UK and loaded there.

Jim
 
DANCESWITHEMPTIES said:
Not to question your reloading methods or experience, but could your calipers be goofed? Had a set of digital calipers go south on me a few years back by a few thou. Didn't realize it until a fresh set of known reloads wouldn't group any longer...
But I have heard of some Enfield bores varying from .309 to .312 when measured with strong to new rifling. Probably wasn't a big issue to the manufacture of combat rifles of that time. 2 m.o.a. was quite acceptable & probably could be achieved with the slight variances in both bores & calibers. Desperate times!
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I would check the calipers as well.
If you are measuring bullet diameters a simple micrometer usually gives a more accurate measurement.
I have measured several hundred .303 bullets and come up with diameters of .311 to .312. I have also slugged and measured the bore on a number of .303 rifles and have found several that are .314 and one that was .315.
If you are slugging a bore that has an odd number of lands you will need a calibrated " V " block to get the true groove diameter.
 
slushee said:
Yup, ask any old enfield fan and they will tell u of the .308-.312ish varience and to slug ur bore.

What surprised me is that nobody has yet mentioned that .308Win is a shortened .30-06 and thus the same bullet diameter.

Why winchester decided to shorten the case can probably be found in wiki somewhere
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There is some serious debate on the .308 win and it's origin. I suspect the U.S. military and Winchester looked at the 300 Savage and said " Lets give it a longer neck, load it up to bolt action pressures with a modern powder and see what happens".
 
bearhunter said:
The diameter of the 7.62x54R, 7.7 Jap and 303Brit should all be .311 for bullet diameter.
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Not if you cast bullets.
the .303 British needs a cast bullet with the nose riding the rifling and 0.001" or 0.002" over the bore diameter. This means some guns like my martini shoot best with a bullet that is 0.316" in diameter
 
I always advise to use 30 cals, hunting, survivor, military applications and target.
303,30.06, 7.62x51,7.62x54,7.7 jap,7.62 russian short. You can shoot a lot of collectables in those 30 cal/roughly 30 cals that have some interchangeability. Probably a couple others out there as well.
It will save you a lot of $ too!
 
I asked in a post in GNzs once if 308 civilai, 7.62x51 and 7,62x54 was interchange able for relaoding, and got a few answers back saying it was not comparable at all, especiallly nato and soviet, not i read its ok, what ever is a guy to do, i only go by what i am told by those in the know, and when i repeat it, i look like a foll, oh well thats life
 
- This is a very good thread.

- I have a 1943 long Branch with a mis-matched bolt. I took it in to have it checked. they headspaced it, re-crowned the muzzle and slugged the bore. They said they had seen bores from .307 to .317. Mine came out at .319! They said, basically, just shoot it and see what it likes. My unscientific experiments thus far with WW1 and WW2 ball and various dominion/CIL/Igman stuff is that we (the rifle and I), at 100 yards, group an ES 4 between just under 4" to about 6", and an ES 5 (counts the most outside shot of a five-round group) at 5" to 8". If you are of the school that believes that a service rifle is just a war club with a rifled hole in it, then this is adequate accuracy, and on par with a lot of FN C1 groups (and C7A2 as well!!) that I have seen in my time. I am having fun experimenting, though.

- For the Canadian Rangers, IVI has produced 215 grain KKSP type nosed cartridges. Probably to stop the stories of seals being taken with 174 grain Mk 7 ball. Has anyone had a chance to mic any of these projectiles?
 
TCBF said:
- This is a very good thread.

- I have a 1943 long Branch with a mis-matched bolt. I took it in to have it checked. they headspaced it, re-crowned the muzzle and slugged the bore. They said they had seen bores from .307 to .317. Mine came out at .319! snip
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Sounds like the perfect rifle to shoot cast bullets designed for the 8x57....
 
The Queens Medalist 86 said:
I always advise to use 30 cals, hunting, survivor, military applications and target.
303,30.06, 7.62x51,7.62x54,7.7 jap,7.62 russian short. You can shoot a lot of collectables in those 30 cal/roughly 30 cals that have some interchangeability. Probably a couple others out there as well.
It will save you a lot of $ too!
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Are you talking about bullets or rounds?

Thanks.

./
 
10x, you have a thing for cast bullets. Admit it now. No one will give you a hard time about it. You're right though. I have a Lithgow No1 with a .318 bore and the only bullets it will shoot well are cast. I tried some .318 diameter 8mm bullets but they didn't shoot much better than the regular .312 jacketed bullets.
 
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