.303 British Issues?

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7ECA

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Taking a bit of liberty here, but from that thread in the general section about the dream of a Norinco reproduction Lee-Enfield series of rifles many of the comments state that they wouldn't get any reproduction L-E if it was chambered in .303.

Apparently there are many "issues" with .303 British including it being an "obsolete" calibre. Now, I can only think of a few things that may vaguely resemble annoyances with the venerable calibre, but I'm looking for input from this learned crowd as to what all the hubbub is about.

1. Rimmed Cartridge.

I know there's lots of people out there who speak ill of the .303 because they've heard of rim jams - but never actually experienced them. Seems it's more of an overblown situation than anything. Easy to deal with as well. Load the charger properly, etc...

2. Cost of Modern Factory Ammunition.

Certainly is pricey to purchase new made .303. Cheapest around is generally Wolf, with undersized bullets, but apparently some places sell PPU for just a bit over $20/box. I'm aware much of the ammunition available is soft point and other more hunting centric designs, and these can be in the $40/box range. Certainly not as cheap as the surplus 7.62 x 39 running in the ~$0.20-$0.30 a round range...

Any other issues, or is this all a lot of hot air?
 
Rimlock can be an issue. I had it happen to me recently during a match, not good. It was my fault though, I wasn't careful loading the stripper clip and somehow when I inserted the clip, I created a rimlock with the top cartridge. Needless to say, I couldn't get any of the 10 shots off. If you shoot a 303, hand loading is the way to go. Cost is then no more than any other similar centre fire cartridge. When hand loading, use a Lee neck sizing die after the first firing. This will extend the case life significantly. Bullets are not hard to find but not as plentiful as 308 bullets. I love all my Enfields and would not replace them for any other milsurp. I have used 308 bullets in my reloads as well with good results. In my No1Mk4, they shoot just about as good as proper 303 bullets (.312"). I get 5 shot groups of around 3" at 100y with them using the peep sights.
 
Probably not the first time I've posted the excerpt from the Small Arms Training pamphlet, but I will again for the heck of it. Interestingly enough, this procedure is listed in the 1937 pamphlet (and with the 1940 amendments as well), but has been removed from the 1942 pamphlet.

The official procedures for Jams and remedies:

In peace, if immediate action does not remedy a jam, the rifle will be taken to the armourer.

James seldom happen, but may be caused by:-
  • Faulty handling of the bolt - the fault of the soldier.
  • Dirt or oil in the magazine - neglect by the soldier.
  • Dirty, damaged or defective ammunition.
  • Badly filled chargers.
  • Worn or damaged parts.

i. No round enters the chamber.
Draw back bolt.
Press rounds into magazine and release them suddenly.
Tap bottom of magazine sharply.

ii. Damaged lips of magazine.
On service, lever up lips with a round of ammunition.

iii. Missfire.
Reload.

iv. Badly filled charger.
Load with fresh charger.
Click to expand...
 
I handload with a lee loader. Much more affordable. Get about 5 or 6 reloads on s&b brass. Probably more on ppu. Just havent used it yet.

Obsolete? Probably taken more game than 30/30 here.

If you dont have a dull dress enfield...get many. I love all of them. Just need a p14
 
Well it is a obsolete caliber at the end of the day. It was obsolete the day it was adopted (the British almost adopted a rimless caliber when the Lee Metford was adopted but the old school way of thinking won out).

Rimmed ammo has no real benefits over rimless, and it has several disadvantages over it, such as the ability to cause rimlock. It does happen. I used to practice the mad minute when I had my P14 and occasionally you would rimlock making the previous shots a waste of ammo, yes I was loading the clip correctly, and yes I know how to do it properly, otherwise I wouldn't be able to do 22rds a min with that rifle on target. Interesting things happen under stress.

In fact the only rimmed ammo system which I have come across and is really immune to the rimlock issue is the Mannlicher system, everything else has the potential for it to happen.

The other thing is it is a .311 diameter bullet which has much less selection than say a .308. Reloading does work for the caliber but if your reloading for something like a Lee Enfield, your brass life tends to be shorter than say a Mauser action due to the way the action is.

Now obsolete doesn't mean ineffective. If your well trained you can still make good use of bolt actions or not ideal calibers, its just there is other stuff out there which is better suited for whatever requirements you may have. Personally I quite like rimmed ammo, I find it better to reload and I enjoy the tactileness of the cartridge. To each their own.

A reproduction Lee Enfield would be somewhat pointless, the reality is Lee Enfields are relatively cheap in comparison to how much a new Lee Enfield would cost to make. If they were less than the cost of a Lee Enfield on the market today, it would be a poor substitute and would basically defeat the purpose of having a reproduction. 7.62 Nato/.308WIN would be the obvious choice for the caliber as it is the most common mid size cartridge out there, and Lee Enfields have been successfully made in that caliber before.
 
I've s reward up my loading, rim to rim and such, no issues, just my number 4 mark 1 sporter hares soft point ammo, I'm gonna have to trim the tips lol
 
To be commercially successful I believe any reproduction enfield would have to be in either .308 or .223. Anything else would be a wild chance and risk failure on non-acceptance due to cost of ammo.
 
Bratwurst said:
Rim lock is not a problem if the ammunition has been produced correctly.

Go on Youtube, Bloke on the Range has an excellent video covering this.
Click to expand...

Rimlock is a problem or else there wouldn’t be so much of a debate on it. At the end of the day, that is a issue that is 100% a result of the cartridge and if they had chosen to use rimless ammo it wouldn’t be a problem. Not to mention the wasted brass that could have been saved due to using rimless cartridges (likely millions of lbs of brass over the course of .303 production).
 

For what it's worth...

Anyhow, if we look beyond the rim on the cartridge - what can people pragmatically say is an issue with .303 British?
 
Eaglelord17 said:
Rimlock is a problem or else there wouldn’t be so much of a debate on it. At the end of the day, that is a issue that is 100% a result of the cartridge and if they had chosen to use rimless ammo it wouldn’t be a problem. Not to mention the wasted brass that could have been saved due to using rimless cartridges (likely millions of lbs of brass over the course of .303 production).
Click to expand...

.30 Carbine must be underpowered or there wouldn't be so much debate about it, birdshot must be good for home defence or there wouldn't be so much debate about it and bumpstocks must be effective otherwise there wouldn't be so much debate about them.

See what I did there?

As I said "Rim lock is not a problem if the ammunition is produced correctly"

Watch the video linked, its really informative.

Of course a rimless cartridge would have been great in many ways .303 British was due for replacement but the minor inconveniance of the two largest wars in human history got in the way.

Saved brass is important, not having to replace your .303 British ammunition stocks and weapon systems across the biggest empire to ever exist when what you have is goox enough is more important and far cheaper.
 
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7ECA said:

For what it's worth...

Anyhow, if we look beyond the rim on the cartridge - what can people pragmatically say is an issue with .303 British?
Click to expand...

Nothing, there are just newer catridges that are more versatile and better to use. Its a black powder catridge updated for the late 19th century, it has inherent flaws that makes .308 winchester better.

Anyone could use a .303 for the vast majority of purposes and be perfectly happy.

But realistically the rifles and ammo available reduce how useful it is in comparison to .308 winchester.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
Rimlock is a problem or else there wouldn’t be so much of a debate on it. At the end of the day, that is a issue that is 100% a result of the cartridge and if they had chosen to use rimless ammo it wouldn’t be a problem. Not to mention the wasted brass that could have been saved due to using rimless cartridges (likely millions of lbs of brass over the course of .303 production).
Click to expand...

Because folks sound off...doesn't make it so.
'Wandering Zero in a No. 5' and 'Luger reliability' are two examples that stand out as well.
Who wants to open up those discussions?
I got my 1st LE in grade 9...funny but my adolescent, no interneting self was able to make it run fine.
 
Bratwurst said:
As I said "Rim lock is not a problem if the ammunition is produced correctly"

Watch the video linked, its really informative.

Of course a rimless cartridge would have been great in many ways .303 British was due for replacement but the minor inconveniance of the two largest wars in human history got in the way.

Saved brass is important, not having to replace your .303 British ammunition stocks and weapon systems across the biggest empire to ever exist when what you have is goox enough is more important and far cheaper.
Click to expand...

They could have adopted a rimless cartridge in 1889 like they were looking at doing and been better off as then they wouldn't have had that issue. Saved money in brass usage, and later on money on stripper clips as it required a material heavy design to work.

At the end of the day you can use a .303 British rifle effectively, that is not the argument. It is simply that Rimlock is a inherent problem to rimmed ammo unless you have a system like the Mannlicher clip to counter it. And you can argue about tolerances of ammo, but nothing is ever guaranteed, just look at what happened to the Ross Rifle. In fact one of the few positive advantages to a rimmed cartridge was the fact you didn't need to have as high tolerances as rimless as the rim is what does the sealing, not the shoulder.

Rimmed ammo is obsolete, it can still work, and it can still be fun, but it has some inherent flaws to it. If it didn't more people would be manufacturing rimmed ammo still for general issue. Why add in a extra portion when it isn't required?

I still drive stick, that being said I understand there is some issues to driving stick over driving automatic. Doesn't mean these issues are always apparent, but it adds in the potential for something to go wrong.
 
Most all rifle cases have rims during early during drawing stages. These disappear when the extractor groove is machined.
In the late 1880s, who knew what the best system would be? Some major nations went with rimless, others used rimmed.
Russia still uses the rimmed 7.62x54R in massive quantities.
 
For a cartridge with issues, it still has roughly equivalent ballistics to 7.62x51, and has still killed more of everything than any "non-obsolete" cartridge. Sloppy (largely US) production of brass, and loadings has altered the cartridge from its original specs, in much the same way that 8mm has been watered down. The American legal system has a lot to answer for when it comes to making cartridges "obsolete".
 
If all rimmed ammunition is obsolete, then there's a lot of uninformed people out there shooting many a calibre that 'ought to be resigned to the dustbin of history.

Quick list of some rimmed cartridges:

  • .38 Special
  • 7.62x54R
  • .30-30 Winchester
  • .38 S&W
  • .357 Mag.

I'm starting to think tokguy is on the right track, this is a case of people buying into the hysteria rather than actually experiencing issues themselves.


Wandering zero on the Jungle Carbine - funny how that came about as the UK was looking to adopt the FAL/SLR, and troops actually liked the No.4/No.5, odd...

As an aside, when do we tell all the rimfire enthusiasts that they need to stop using that obsolete junk? :nest:
 
the 303 Brit was determined to be obsolete as a military cartridge and a dead end development. by 1913 the British had a replacement but as you indicated there was a war and piles of 303 sitting around so "dance with the one your brung"

The British tended to study a problems and take forever to implement the 'perfect' solution. Look at the American development 45-70 to 30-40 to 30-06. (well 30-03 then 30-06) in much the same timeframe as the British were going from 577-450, 403Enfield, 303Brit, 276 rimless, with the 403 being a speed bump in the development. The British were also notoriously cheap when it came to funding their Army till they really needed it. So while the US was evolving and improving their ammunition the British were studying and coming up with an improved solution.

however when they get it right.... and the US just ignores them and goes its own way, case in point the 7x43mm Vs the US decision to go with the 7.62x51mm and then again 5.56x45mm.
 
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