303 British Surplus Ammo Questions

CroakingToad

CroakingToad

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A while back, I purchased 100 rounds bulk .303 British surplus ammo. Soon after, I tore both rotator cuffs and couldn't shoot for a long time.

To make a long story short, I decided to show my gear a little love (cleaned the bang sticks, sorted through the ammo boxes, etc) and rediscovered this bag of old surplus .303 ammo.

It's all military surplus, (full metal jacket), and from 4 different manufacturers;

Dominion Arsenal (DAC)
Defence Industries (DI)
Royal Ordnance Factory Radway Green (R)
Cartoucherie Française (F)


The R,s are all within the date ranges from 1953 - 1957 with headstamps that say RG, (year), 7
The DI's are all within the date range from 1943 - 1945 with Headstamps that say DI, (year), Z
The DAC's are all either from 1951 and 1956 with Headstamps that read DAC, (year), 7Z
The F's are all from 1948 with headstamps that read F 48 Z

I'm trying to wade through all the other online resources (but its a real headache) to determine
Which of these are nitrocellulose and which are cordite (if any)
Which (if any of these) could be non-corrosive

From what I have read, and given the date stamp, the DIs are Boxer Primed and this could be non-corrosive, but I'm not 100 percent on that.

Any surplus .303 British shooter out there who could help me out here?

One final question, could the casings (once spent) be use to reload with modern hunting lead accelerants and primers?

Thanks in advance.

Note to mods: If this more of a surplus versus reloading post, feel free to move it to where you think it should be,
 
I'd be treating it all as corrosive, and cordite as propellant up to the mid-'50's.

1956 era ammo could be the transitional stage. Cordite will not smoke, nitrocellulose, while 'smokeless' will in fact smoke more than a cordite round. Discharging a '56, then a 1950 round ought to show you the difference...and that's if you don't want to just pull a bullet.

The brass is some of the best ever made, I would recommend fire forming the brass to your chamber via an o-ring on the base of the cartridge.
 
Z=Nitrocellulose.
DI are non-corrosive, Boxer primed. This was considered to be some of the best .303 ball ever made, with excellent reloadable cases. It is also pushing 80 years old.
1/4" diameter copper primers are Berdan, assume corrosive.
 
Thanks guys. It's all appreciated.

I'm not a reloader, but I have family that does. The general plan was to hit the range and blow these off, then get him to reload all of my brass. From what I have read, it is best to actually shoot these rounds from teh firearm they will be going back into so they are chamber molded. Is that correct?

@Painkillers, What do you mean about using an o ring. Can you elaborate?
 
If cases have 1/4" diameter Berdan primers, it is not likely that you are going to get them reloaded. Look for .210" dimeter large rifle Boxer primers, like the DI ammunition has.

The O-ring or elastic band holds the case head back against the bolt face so tht the case fireforms without stretching just in front of the base, which leads to separations.
 
That "o-ring" thing is about fire forming that case to fit that chamber. Typical wartime ammo was meant to be fired once and discarded - and not burst (most of the time) - was never any plan among war-time designers to re-load - so, especially in WWI made rifles, the chambers for 303 British tended to be "sloppy" - longer or wider than "normal" - was of no matter, then, since a 303 British head spaces off its rim, not the shoulder.

They did not care about "incipient head separation" or things like that, so long as it fired the first time and did not burst. It is us that want to reload them - was not a design feature, then.

Head space gauges for 303 British can look like discs - only gauging the space for the rim to the bolt face - the rest of the chamber body is ignored. The "o-ring" fire forming causes the head space to occur at the case shoulder - to match that particular chamber. And can only be done on the first firing of the case, if there is very much discrepancy between that case and that chamber.
 
CroakingToad said:
Thanks guys. It's all appreciated.

I'm not a reloader, but I have family that does. The general plan was to hit the range and blow these off, then get him to reload all of my brass. From what I have read, it is best to actually shoot these rounds from teh firearm they will be going back into so they are chamber molded. Is that correct?

@Painkillers, What do you mean about using an o ring. Can you elaborate?
Click to expand...

Tiriaq and Potashminer beat me to it...but I have Internet pics, so that's fun, right?
View attachment 727926

Note that this can be used to explain what once fired case looks like. It has two different finishes on it, matte and shiney. What the pic doesn't show very well would be the fact that the shiny part is actually bulged. It's quite normal, not at all dangerous and should a case rupture, if fired out of a Lee Enfield, it's harmlessly vented out the left rear of the chamber.

As the cartridge ignites, the entire case expands and is sent rearward out of the chamber (Newton's 3rd law of motion.). What stops the expansion is the bolt face in the rear, the chamber wall 360, and the fact that it's run out of energy on a slide scale as the projectile is sent down the barrel.

So, fired case, job done, hope you hit the bulls and bob's your uncle, throw the brass in the reload bin and chamber another round, right? Only sort of right. The case is very distorted from its original spec., and if distorted enough, it may not even chamber properly (the swollen expansion occurs under tonnes of pressure, that you will never be able to replicate with the leverage of the bolt.). In order to reload this cartridge properly, you must resize it. That "bulge" must be pushed back to whence it came from, and referring to Newton again, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. In this instant, the neck and shoulder are forced up into the die, stretching brass. At this stage, you still have distorted brass, but instead of bulged, it's now too tall and must be trimmed.

Each successive reloading involves this brass manipulation, thinning of the cartridge wall, and removing the excess with a trimmer...3 maybe 4 reloadings, and your brass will become unserviceable. Junk. And the stuff is approaching 303 Savage prices (I'm looking at you Prophet (Profit) River ;)).........................There is another way, a better way. FIRE FORMING!!...........................

Many thanks to Smellie (God rest his soul). He taught me (us here) that if you wish to drastically improve the life of your brass, fire form it to the chamber of your gun. If you have many Lee Enfields, you should also have many different designated piles of reloading brass for each rifle.

To fire form your brass, they are single loaded. Place a tightly fitting o-ring from the front, and roll it down to the rim...kinda like a...nevermind, just do it. Each round gets its own o-ring. The o-ring acts as a compression gasket allowing the bolt face to compress the round in the chamber without any fore and aft slop. The only gap will be the chamber wall. When this round is touched off, it cannot be sent rearward out of the chamber against the bolt face, therefore, the forces that be, expand the brass inside the chamber. Neck, shoulder, wall, all forced into the chamber wall then a slight retraction in order to extract.

This case, will have no bulge. The matte look will be almost all the way down to the rim...the result is, the brass doesn't need to be resized. It is sized, to that chamber. Clean it, prime it, powder and bullet, ANOTHER O-RING, and Boom...15x's...20 times out of the same piece of brass? I don't recall what Smellie's record was but it was truly incredible.

Hope this helps. Smellie always said to pass it forward, he was very liberal with sharing his knowledge, something he possessed in abundance.

View attachment 727941
 
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From other Internet postings, I got a bit different understanding of it then expressed above in Post #7. When chambered normally - without an "o-ring" - the firing pin strike will slam that cartridge forward - whatever amount of head space slop that rifle has. Once the pressure builds - is the neck and shoulder area that expand first and grab tight to the chamber walls - so front end of the case is held tight at front of chamber - then the case head is driven back to be tight to the bolt face. Depending on the sizing, that case head movement may have exceeded the stretch capability of the brass wall - if you look inside those cases, or feel with a hooked wire, you will see or feel a groove just in front of the case head - on the inside of the brass case - the case wall, right there, is much thinner then normal - where it stretched. If you simply resize it as a rimless round - Full Length size - it will stretch again - likely second or third firing, you will extract the case head and the case walls will stay in the chamber. If you simply just Neck Size it, your next firings have to survive with that thinner area in front of the case head - that might let go - will vary from one rifle to another - some work out okay and some will not.

There will be exactly the same thing happening with excess head space in a belted magnum - it relies on the spacing between the bolt face and that rim within the chamber for the belt - the rest of the chamber is really irrelevant. As I understand it, SAAMI specs for headspace are suppose to account for what that brass case can stretch, without bursting.

That case over-stretch must have been a known thing to occur sometimes on first firing - I have a tool - a "broken case extractor" that I understand many or all WWI British soldiers were equipped with - to get that case out of the chamber, and carry on firing. Some people report that they can get that out by ramming another cartridge in there - won't chamber, but goes inside the case and grabs on to it tight enough to pull it out. Is NOT an overload, or over pressure - it is result of chamber being longer / larger than the cartridge, and slop available to allow that case to move in there when fired. I do not think that incipient case head separation occurs when there is "0" headspace slop - which is what that o-ring does - is no way for firing pin to push that case forward. The firing pressure than expands the case to fully match to that chamber - in effect creating a case with nearly "0" end play, for that chamber.

I think there is about 0.010" difference between minimum and maximum headspace as per SAAMI - so, thickness of 2 1/2 sheets of paper is about the difference. Not likely most people could eye-ball that ...
 
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I would bet your "F" headstamp examples are all from the Small Arms Ammunition Factory No. 1 Footscray, Australia.
 
not long ago i picked up a bag of 200 once fired 1943-1945 303 brass and reloaded it up and the brass is very good. had to drill out the crimp but the brass is heavy and solid material.
 
Just a note of caution I've seen hang fires from old surplus 303 far longer than others. If it doesn't fire keep it pointed down range for at least 2 minutes before opening the bolt.
 
Radway Green is all corrosive, Cordite loaded. So, very hot and will cause throat erosion if fired in quantity. For the good stuff, DI, the primers were crimped, so the primer pockets will need reaming.
 
I shot through just about all my surplus .303 and moved up to modern Boxer new brass. The elastic band or o-ring is my conservation method to keep these cases to the next few decades. I went to the Dollar Store and bought a little snap top tube of girl's sparkly hair elastics. Doubled once and slid down to the rim. In simple language, the extractor is not a precise positioning device. I don't want to push the case forward with the firing pin any more than tolerance permits. The push forward/fill out/push backward flow is what I understand to be my enemy.
 
Thanks guys for all the input. I'm thinking that I'm gonna do the o-ring thing once with the decent rounds I have, just to get the FMJ's out of there and get them reloaded with my preferred hunting round. The rest that are not great candidates for reloading, I'll use for practice shooting. At my age, I doubt I'll be around long enough to burn through what I've got (barring some sort of zombie uprising or dystopian apocalypse ;-) )
 
Point taken. I was in the military for a few years and had the pleasure of dealing with older 7.62 ammo that every once and a while refused to go bang. Those range days were fun, but with loading up loose rounds from an old ammo box, there was always a change of a hang fire or two throughout the day's shooting.
 
one more point in the story of how the case expands

first as above headspace off the rim

second the firing pin pushes the round as far forward as its going to go

neck and body grip, the brass is thinnest, then the thicker part at the base, web, is forced backwards against the bolt face stretching the case and causing a thin spot just at the top of the web.

now if the chamber is oversized, which many are the case is sitting at the bottom of the chamber when everything goes boom, the stretching is going to be asymmetric and when the base is forced back it will not be straight anymore. Those cases are bent, and normally the firing pin strike is noticeably off center.

having dozens of enfields sorting brass for each rifle is a bit of a chore, so I just full length size and shoot the brass to destruction, reloading normally starts with a visual inspection and a cull of 30-50% of the brass. If you get 2-3 reloads out of a case with full length size that's 3-4 times fired.
 
This is just to put things into context; with regards to casing longevity.

I don't shoot large bore rifles and shotguns a lot anymore. Maybe 10 rounds per firearm each year, to make sure they are still zeroed in and functioning properly, or to pattern new or unfamiliar shotgun loads.

For tuning in my shooting skills, sighting, breathing, ergonomics, etc, I use a .22 rifle. The rounds are cheap and I can plink all day with no shoulder pain (tore both rotator cuffs a few years back). Typically if I'm leveling one of the big firearms, it's at something that is eventually going to end up on the plate, or in the freezer.

My last trip out for deer, I took 40 rounds for the .303 and came home with 37, the other three ended up putting deer on the pole. That's not a flex. I'm just too cheap to be flinging lead around unless I'm 99% certain of a kill.

I'm actually looking forward to blowing off the FMJ stuff this coming summer, both for the fun of shooting but also to see where my shoulders are as far as healed up and their ability to take the punishment of shooting more. After those rounds are reloaded, they'll end up in the ammo stockpile. The hope is I can have enough so I'm no longer worried about the skyrocketing cost, and increasingly shortage that seems to be there now for British .303. I'm 60 after all and figure I've only got a decade or so more before hanging it up for good.
 
I have been shooting .303's for about 50 years now.

I have always enjoyed having surplus more or less at my disposal over this time period.

Only once have I bought new brass and never had the time to do the O-Ring thing as I was loading up for a match that I was attending at the military range in Winona, Ontario back in the early 90's.

Hindsight as foresight, I wish that I made the time to do it as virgin brass is sooooo d@m expensive these days and I'm dam near out of my surplus stash. b:

So if your using virgin brass, do the o-ring method and use that brass in that particular .303 firearm only.

I have seen so many people over the years that buy once fired .303 brass to end up having case separation problems.
 
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