.303 military brass was never designed to be reloaded! Because of the case internal web design, on every shot the case stretches a little bit more. There is nothing at all wrong with my headspacing, this is typical of all military brass, particularly of that cheap soft brass crap manufactured by IVI. IVI can't even be used in automatic firearms because the bullet crimp isn't tight enough. Years ago my boss was one of the guys on the FTR line that every Canadian Enfield went through before sale and he described the pains that they went through to make those rifles like they were in day old condition. .303 isn't a .30-06, where I can get 10-20 reloads out of a casing.
303 case separation
- Thread starter cchaddock
- Start date
.303 military brass was never designed to be reloaded! Because of the case internal web design, on every shot the case stretches a little bit more. There is nothing at all wrong with my headspacing, this is typical of all military brass, particularly of that cheap soft brass crap manufactured by IVI. IVI can't even be used in automatic firearms because the bullet crimp isn't tight enough. Years ago my boss was one of the guys on the FTR line that every Canadian Enfield went through before sale and he described the pains that they went through to make those rifles like they were in day old condition. .303 isn't a .30-06, where I can get 10-20 reloads out of a casing.
Simple answer dont use cheap military brass!
Ive never had a problem using Winchester, Federal or PPU brass
Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
Ummmmn, technically NO brass is designed to be RE-loaded...
Norma is typically a good example of short life brass
Sorry if I am beating a dead horse
I have two sets of problems with my No.1 and my No.4
On the weekend I fire formed new Remington brass in my No.1 and all the primers were backed out. No sign of case seperation though (cracks or bright rings). Does this indicate bad headspace? or simply that the brass was undersize from factory and has now stretched to proper length for my chamber and the next reloads should not have backed out primers?
AND,
My No.4 had several case seperations with brass reloaded exclusivly for it (about fourth firing). I did the "spin the bolt head one turn out trick" to determine if I need a higher number bolt head but the bolt would only lock half way. Should I still order a #2 bolt head or is there another avenue I could approach?
Thanks for any and all help! I love the knowledge base here on CGN!
I have two sets of problems with my No.1 and my No.4
On the weekend I fire formed new Remington brass in my No.1 and all the primers were backed out. No sign of case seperation though (cracks or bright rings). Does this indicate bad headspace? or simply that the brass was undersize from factory and has now stretched to proper length for my chamber and the next reloads should not have backed out primers?
AND,
My No.4 had several case seperations with brass reloaded exclusivly for it (about fourth firing). I did the "spin the bolt head one turn out trick" to determine if I need a higher number bolt head but the bolt would only lock half way. Should I still order a #2 bolt head or is there another avenue I could approach?
Thanks for any and all help! I love the knowledge base here on CGN!
Get your rifles checked for headspace. Mind you the No4 is probably ok, if you full-length resize your brass each time 4 reloads isn't unexpected. Don't change a blot head unless you need to (determined by checking headspace)
Lou
wyleekyotee
Member
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Here is a picture of a device I made based on snowhunter's explanation.
Work's great! I used 1/4" brass from the hardware store - 5 bucks
Work's great! I used 1/4" brass from the hardware store - 5 bucks
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
You could have just bought a knitting needle
Recce21
It is normal for the primer to back out under low pressure conditions with reduced loads, what your primers are telling you is your “fire forming” load is too “light” and is not generating enough pressure to force the rear of the case against the bolt face.
Below is what is happening because of low chamber pressure, and this can happen on any caliber case at chamber pressures below 38,000 CUP .
Below is the same animated process at pressures above 38,000 CUP and the chamber pressure generated is enough to “push” the rear of the case against the bolt face. Please note the amount of head space and rim thickness governs how much the case will stretch and thin in the web area which causes case head separation.
Below is a factory .303 British Winchester case that was fired in my No.4 Enfield with the head space set at just a shade under .067. The case has stretched .009 (nine thousandths) this .009 stretch is also equal to the head gap clearance or “air space” between the base of the case and the bolt face.
Here is a simple trick for fire forming cases that also prevents case head separation from starting, place a small rubber o-ring around the case before firing. The rubber o-ring forces the case against the bolt face and also centers the case in the chamber.
The rubber o-ring method of fire forming cases for the Enfield rifle prevents this from happening below.
With the o-ring method even Enfield rifles with the head space in excess of .074 the cases can be fire formed and not have to worry about case head separations.
And sometimes the word “head space” means absolutely nothing........................................
The number of loads you can get from a .303 depends on the rifle and headspace - and how you reload. I have sat at the range with a lee loader and gotten fifteen loads from a single case in a No 4. without a case head separation. A full length resize (lee hand press) and the case went another fourteen without separation.
Another fellow with a .303 gets a case head separation on the second or third reload -
bigedp51,
WOW! Thanks for all that info! So I should consider the rounds with backed out primers NOT to be fire formed yet? When I reload them I will adjust the grain-age for sure. Thanks for taking the time to post all that.
WOW! Thanks for all that info! So I should consider the rounds with backed out primers NOT to be fire formed yet? When I reload them I will adjust the grain-age for sure. Thanks for taking the time to post all that.
Recce21
10x just gave the best short explanation on case head separations and reloading the .303 British, head space and chamber diameter both effect how far your fired cases can stretch and thin in the web area.
I have been reloading for over 40 years and when a Canadian in another forum posted the the o-ring method for fire forming .303 cases I gave it a try and it is the only fire forming method I use for the .303 British now. The o-ring forces the case against the bolt face and the only direction the case case can expand and stretch is outward to meet the chamber walls.
Case construction, rim thickness, base diameter and the grade or type brass the case is made out of all effect case stretching in the base web area of the case and case head separations.
Some of you may know that the Greek HXP cases are highly rated for reloading and cases life, another even better case in my opinion are Prvi Partizan cases, which are easer to get and are newly made.
Below on the left is a once fired Prvi Partizan case and on the right is a once fired Greek HXP case, the Prvi Parizan case walls are thicker and the base diameter is larger than ANY currently made commercial .303 ammunition.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link and American commercial ammunition is downloaded to the lower pressures levels of the early smokeless .303 ammunition which was approximately 38,000-40,000 CUP. This is to prevent firearms damage and lawsuits when commercial ammunition is fired in Enfield's made before the turn of the century.
When you reload this commercial ammunition the cases fall apart quickly when they are loaded to the max pressure levels of Mk.VII cartridge which is 46,000 CUP or 49,000 PSI. From reloading the Prvi Partizan cases I believe they are being made or manufactured to withstand the normal chamber pressure of 46,000 CUP (Mk.VII ammunition) and are the BEST cases for current reloading at higher chamber pressures without case head separations.
(The Prvi website states they sell military grade ammunition)
Recce21
Use the o-ring method of fireforming your cases and you will not have to guess at how much powder to use to fireform your cases OR worry about case thinning in the web area when fireforming.
P.S. DON'T use duct tape to fire form your cases.
10x just gave the best short explanation on case head separations and reloading the .303 British, head space and chamber diameter both effect how far your fired cases can stretch and thin in the web area.
I have been reloading for over 40 years and when a Canadian in another forum posted the the o-ring method for fire forming .303 cases I gave it a try and it is the only fire forming method I use for the .303 British now. The o-ring forces the case against the bolt face and the only direction the case case can expand and stretch is outward to meet the chamber walls.
Case construction, rim thickness, base diameter and the grade or type brass the case is made out of all effect case stretching in the base web area of the case and case head separations.
Some of you may know that the Greek HXP cases are highly rated for reloading and cases life, another even better case in my opinion are Prvi Partizan cases, which are easer to get and are newly made.
Below on the left is a once fired Prvi Partizan case and on the right is a once fired Greek HXP case, the Prvi Parizan case walls are thicker and the base diameter is larger than ANY currently made commercial .303 ammunition.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link and American commercial ammunition is downloaded to the lower pressures levels of the early smokeless .303 ammunition which was approximately 38,000-40,000 CUP. This is to prevent firearms damage and lawsuits when commercial ammunition is fired in Enfield's made before the turn of the century.
When you reload this commercial ammunition the cases fall apart quickly when they are loaded to the max pressure levels of Mk.VII cartridge which is 46,000 CUP or 49,000 PSI. From reloading the Prvi Partizan cases I believe they are being made or manufactured to withstand the normal chamber pressure of 46,000 CUP (Mk.VII ammunition) and are the BEST cases for current reloading at higher chamber pressures without case head separations.
(The Prvi website states they sell military grade ammunition)
Recce21
Use the o-ring method of fireforming your cases and you will not have to guess at how much powder to use to fireform your cases OR worry about case thinning in the web area when fireforming.
P.S. DON'T use duct tape to fire form your cases.
If you're just punching paper. load lighter bullets and less powder or you won't get much life out of the casings. The worst reloading accident I've ever witnessed was with a SMLE due to execessive pressure. Those rear locking bolts are a weakness in that rifle, however they're smooth as hell and fun to shoot.
This is the first time I've heard of the o-ring fireforming method. What is a suggested powder/bullet combination? After the initial fireforming, Do you just partially resize cases until they grow too long and must be full length sized?
What headstamp does prvi use? So I can recognize them if some show up at gunshows or such.
Kimzter
What headstamp does prvi use? So I can recognize them if some show up at gunshows or such.
Kimzter
Kimzter
Call me a non-conformist but far too many people blame the Enfield rifle and its rear locking lugs for its short case life when reloading. I don't buy into that line of thinking for one very good reason, for 30 years I have been reloading a Winchester 30-30 with a rimed case that is fired in a rifle with the locking lugs at the rear of the action.
The only real differencein the Enfield rifle and the Winchester 94 is chamber pressure and I have NEVER had a case separation my 30-30 Winchester or in all the years I have been reloading.
With the o-ring method of fire forming cases you do NOT get any case stretching when the case or cartridge is fired for the first time. Also after the case has been fire formed the case will be head spacing on the shoulder of the case and not the rim if you neck size only. The simple trick here is to neck size only and not work the brass at the base of the case
Here is something to remember about American made .303 cases, our cases have a rim thickness averaging between .060 and .058. On an Enfield rifle with the head space at .074 or maximum you can have as much as .016 (sixteen thousandths) air gap or head gap clearance between the rear of the case and the bolt face. (my 30-30 only has .004 head gap clearance)
I fire my American made cases twice with a medium load using an o-ring to ensure the case has expanded equally in all directions and neck size only thereafter on my American made cases. The prvi cases need only to be fireformed once using an o-ring due to their thicker construction.
New unprimed Prvi Partizan brass can be purchased at Graf and Son INC.
http://www.grafs.com/product/266845
Loaded Prvi Partizan ammunition can be found at aproximatly $13.00 for a box of 20 by Googling Prvi Partizan .303 ammunition prices and looking for the cheapest vender.
Being the cheap bastard that I am here is the cheapest place I have found so far.
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catal...zan-174gr-fmj-ammo/cName/303-british-fmj-ammo
X2!
Also, my headspace is excessive in my No.1 and I know that the No.4's had numbered bolt heads to fix that, what can I do with my No.1? Is there a bolt head system for them too? My current bolt head just has an M on it.
