303 Martini Problems

[Loki610]

So I decided I'd try out my grandpas ancient 1890's vintage Martini, decided it would be a fun carbine to use for elk this fall. I have a pile of old ammo for this thing and I grabbed a pair of boxes of old CIL Imperial 180grain, as well as some new Winchester and federal in 180 grain, and 1 lonely Norma load. I went out to the pasture where I had a selection of hillsides from 50-400 yards and some nice dumb gophers standing in the sunlight. Folded out the shooting sticks and fitted on a slip-on recoil pad (Steel buttplates suck) Adjusted the sights to their lowest setting of 200 yards, took aim at a gopher about 100 yards out and fired. Bullet smacks into the hillside 3' over his head! So i aimed at one 50 yards out, bullet hits 9" high. 200 yards only 1' high! After a few shots I get this figured out and managed to nail a few critters at around 200 yards. The whole time I've been putting the brass in my shirt pocket and I stopped to check and see if there was anything funny. This Is what I see on the Imperial brass

and the primers pushed out enough to feel easily

At this point I think my guns screwed and unsafe to fire anymore but I take a closer look at my remaining 30 something rounds of imperial

The ones on the bottom and left side are all cracked in the same place as the splits in the fired cases, and the far left one is split right from the lip to halfway down the cartridge. Hard to see in the picture as they're hairline cracks barely detectable by fingernail. From the remaining 10 rounds in that box 6 are cracked! How the hell does that happen!

But the lonely norma case is fine.

and so are the federal (right) and Winchester(left)

So now i figure I have 30+ rounds of useless ammunition!
I think my sight problem may have its roots long ago. I think this rifle once had a longer barrel (its now 16") but was cut down to be a saddle carbine and had the original front sight remounted. I believe this might have changed the angle enough to be causing an issue.
close range sights 200-500yards

600-1900 yard sights

some of the many proof marks and Nitro Safe Rating

But at least I saw what a 180 grain bullet would do to a gopher!

 

[maple_leaf_eh]

Nice family story - sloppy chamber. That old brass would split anyways. Were you wearing proper eye protection? There aren't many solutions. Rebarrel or cut a new thread and rechamber.

 

[Loki610]

Nice family story - sloppy chamber. That old brass would split anyways. Were you wearing proper eye protection? There aren't many solutions. Rebarrel or cut a new thread and rechamber.

Yeah I'll have to take her In to get checked out. Definitely wouldn't use her to hunt with till the problems are fixed.

 

[buffdog]

Ammo problems

It looks like the Winchester, Federal and Norma ammo shoots all right. No excessive primer protrusion, no splits, although the chamber is a bit on the "generous" side of dimensions. If you consider WHERE these rifles were intended to be used, (India, the desert, etc.,) you have a clue why these rifles tend to have larger chambers. They were designed for Military use and to function under poor conditions.

Imperial was known to have dubious batches of brass, where they used a lot of zinc in the alloy. Over the years, these brass cartridges hardened and the pressure of the bullets caused splits and other problems. I would pull the bullets, and junk the powder and case. Do not try to salvage the primers.

You can always make the front sight a bit higher, then file it down so that you get a 200 yard zero. That should make a good deer rifle.

I think I would not try to set the barrel back and rechamber the rifle. If you reload, and start with good newer factory production ammo, then you can easily neck size the brass only. Full length sizing will eventually result in overworking the cases and you will get a case separation in the chamber. There is no blackened area around the neck and shoulder, so the cases are sealing, and by neck sizing you have cases that are custom made for your chamber - they will go back in, and probably be a bit more accurate.

While the cases are a bit unsightly, they will work nicely with a reload. If you look at cartridges fired in the Ross rifles where the chamber was really enlarged, and the "improved" cartridges that really blow out a fired case, your Martini chamber is not really that critical. Some of the Ross rifles blow them out a lot more than your Martini.
.

 

[englishman_ca]

Good info from Buffdog.

Your chamber size situation is not uncommon and nothing to get excited about. As mentioned, the case did its job and sealed the gases as it was meant to do. Military ammo was intended to be used once, if the brass cracked or distorted, so what?

If it were mine, I wouldn't consider the rifle to have a problem. I would just use name brand modern commercial ammo that worked in it, toss the empties and not worry about reloading.

 

[Loki610]

Good info from Buffdog.

Your chamber size situation is not uncommon and nothing to get excited about. As mentioned, the case did its job and sealed the gases as it was meant to do. Military ammo was intended to be used once, if the brass cracked or distorted, so what?

If it were mine, I wouldn't consider the rifle to have a problem. I would just use name brand modern commercial ammo that worked in it, toss the empties and not worry about reloading.

good to hear! I'll still have her checked out and have the sights looked at tho

 

[bigedp51]

Loki610

Prvi Partizan .303 ammunition is made heavy duty and I would conceder it truly military grade brass.

Prvi .303 cartridge cases have thicker rims, larger base diameter and the case walls are .010 thicker than any other brand of .303 cases.

The only problem is the majority of Prvi .303 ammunition is loaded with boat tail bullets that will not shoot well in old worn barrels that shot cordite ammunition.

Below Prvi Partizan .303 cartridge cases fired once in a 1943 Maltby, please notice no bulging in the base web area. At Gunboards one member reloaded his Prvi cases 32 times before he had a neck split.

Below I fireform my cases by placing a small rubber o-ring around the base of the case which holds the case against the bolt face and also centers the case in the rear of the chamber. (no case stretching in the web area and even case expansion around the base)

For plinking and fireforming I load 100 grain .312 pistol bullets with reduced loads of Trail Boss.
(Remington brass used below and is second runner up after Prvi brass)

Prvi Partizan cartridge cases can be ordered online.

 

[buffdog]

Reloads

Excellent information from BIGEDP51.

I find that the 123 grain bulets designed for the Russian 7.62x39 cartridge will also shoot very well in the .303 British. In fact, for 300 yard and under targets, they will stay well within the limits of accuracy of Mark7 ball, and with a lot less recoil.
.

 

[woodchopper]

Loki610

Prvi Partizan .303 ammunition is made heavy duty and I would conceder it truly military grade brass.

Prvi .303 cartridge cases have thicker rims, larger base diameter and the case walls are .010 thicker than any other brand of .303 cases.

The only problem is the majority of Prvi .303 ammunition is loaded with boat tail bullets that will not shoot well in old worn barrels that shot cordite ammunition.

Below Prvi Partizan .303 cartridge cases fired once in a 1943 Maltby, please notice no bulging in the base web area. At Gunboards one member reloaded his Prvi cases 32 times before he had a neck split.


Prvi Partizan cartridge cases can be ordered online.

those 2 points are very interesting.

my stock of IVI is starting to wear out



Oh and back to the OP... I have found old Imperial ammo with split necks, nothing unusual there

 

[josquin]

Loki,

I have a similar Martini (c/w 12+-lb. trigger pull; gotta take a day off and try and improve that). My barrel was shot out and I replaced it with one from an SMLE Nº III as the threads are the same so that's an option should you decide to rebarrel.

Here's what one fellow did with his. I'm planning to do this with mine if Marstar ever gets their promised shipment of Enfield wood from the warehouse in Greece. I can't remember where I got this pic but I know that CGN member John Sukey has a similar one:

As to shooting high, I don't know where the original sights were intended to shoot to, but most SMLE's were zeroed to 200-300 yards. Given that the intended target was tall and thin, troops were taught to hold a little over or under.

If you reload, get some new brass and a Lee neck-size die and only resize the neck. Just remember that it may not chamber in any other .303, so keep that brass for the Martini.

I'm sure others with more knowledge than I will continue to post with useful information. There is also a dedicated Martini-Henry Forum, too.

Stuart

 

[Drachenblut]

I personally own another one of these carbines, dated 1898. Great piece of history. My brass (the uncracked ones) look exactly the same as yours. The primer protrusion is normal I've found, as is the generous chamber size. I utilize older Dominion, IVI and Prvi Partisan brass to reload, as the rims and thickness/compostion of brass is better than modern commercial production, I find. Nice to see someone else has a carbine, care to post some pictures?

 

[Riflechair]

Your spent brass doesn't look like it is exhibiting signs of pressure. Primers look good to me. That brass is no good right off the bat. Pull the bullets and throw that ammo in the garbage. I have seen this before - the brass has gone brittle from oxidation and age.

I sure wish I had your martini here, I could check it's head space for you. There might not ba anything wrong with your rifle.

 

[Loki610]

I personally own another one of these carbines, dated 1898. Great piece of history. My brass (the uncracked ones) look exactly the same as yours. The primer protrusion is normal I've found, as is the generous chamber size. I utilize older Dominion, IVI and Prvi Partisan brass to reload, as the rims and thickness/compostion of brass is better than modern commercial production, I find. Nice to see someone else has a carbine, care to post some pictures?

I'll take better pictures this weekend when I'm back at the ranch with a proper digital camera!

 

[Loki610]

I'm not experienced with the .303 so I'm not sure where the poi should be at ranges <200yards. Anyone with experience care to enlighten me what to expect at ranges of 50 or 100yards when zero'd at 200 yards?

 

[tiriaq]

Just reread the first post, and noticed that the barrel has been cut back to 16".
Wouldn't this would make the rifle a prohibited firearm?

 

[tactical870]

Just reread the first post, and noticed that the barrel has been cut back to 16".
Wouldn't this would make the rifle a prohibited firearm?

As much as I hate to admit it I agree......

 

[smellie]

Are you certain that your IMPERIAL ammo is CIL stuff? Or could it be IVI?

IVI had a terrible go-round with hard brass in the late '70s and early '80s, as well as numerous "issues" with exploding .22 target rifles and other fun things (reversed primers, rounds with no powder, rounds with charges which had to be over Proof pressures, bum primers and just general sloppiness and a total lack of quality control). I mentioned some of this in a newsaper article I wrote about how not to blow up our rifle.... and they sued me for a million bucks, so I sent them the actual cartridges which had been photographed for the newspaper article..... and there was no more talk of a lawsuit. I still have a bunch of that crud brass around somewhere.

CIL ammo was made in the same lant and it was really decent stuff, but CIL last made .303 ammo in 1968, which is 43 years ago. That ammo has had at least 43 years to show problems, and that is what it is doing. Notice the corrosion on some of your cartridges. That is solid evidence of poor storage. Brass hardens in storage as a normal thing, but if the stuff gets corroded, then you WILL have problems where the corrosion has eaten away at the brass. The brass in the corroded spots WILL be much harder AND thinner AND far less elastic, so it breaks or splits when subjected to sudden pressure, which is what occurs when it is fired.

You CAN save most of the brass by cleaning off any corrosion, then unloading the ammo, popping the primers, annealing the casings and then reloading them. Some will come out okay, others likely won't.

But the PROBLEM here is old ammo which has been stored poorly. When the stuff was made, it was right up there with the best in the world and it was ACCURATE to boot. But that was 43 or more years ago. They started using that headstamp about 50 years ago, as I recall, so the ammo could have been lying around, exposed to corroding conditions, for as long as 50 years.

Apart from the fact that corroded ammo doesn't like your rifle, you really don't have a problem. The Headspace Monster isn't really much of a problem, either: headspace is FAR less critical with rimmed ammunition. You have primers sticking out a tad backwards on some of these rounds. That is because your rifle is a tiny bit loose. It HAS TO be loose so you can get marginal Service ammo into it when the Fuzzy-Wuzzies or some other variety of "poor benighted 'eathen" (quoting Kipling, of course) comes over the hill at you. If your ammo was in good condition, ignition wold have been much more consistent the cases would have slammed back against the breechblock much more uniformly on firing, the primers would have been pressed back into the casings..... and you never would have known about it.

As to the sights, that's another issue completely, one which you should investigate when you have 50 rounds of good handloaded ammo and a couple of really decent sandbags with you.
.

 

[smellie]

You can buy shotguns with barrels shorter than that, right over the counter or fit on aftermarket barrels.

It's a Martini, not a semi-auto and it is designed to be used in both hands. That makes a difference, or so I am told.

Lots of old .22s with short barrels, too. Carcano cavalry carbines have 17 inches and they're okay.

Frankly, I don't know. Sure hope not, anyway. Thankfully, it will accept an SMLE barrel easily.
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