Well, certainly good headspace, anyway. - dan
303 O rings?
- Thread starter gregc
- Start date
Well, certainly good headspace, anyway. - dan
Many No4 MkII chambers are like that. They were built to much tighter control standards from what I can see.
If your headspace is that tight, don't bother with the "O" rings you don't need them
If you're going to be using pristine cases, instead of full-length resizing, PARTIAL NECK RESIZE. Only swage about half the neck.
This will keep the neck centered in the chamber every bit as well as an "O" ring and the case will fireform accordingly.
The "O" ring trick is for the very sloppy wartime chambers with excessive tolerances.
I fire a lot of 303, I use 3 different rifles, I take new or at worst ,once fired cases, anneal the shoulder and neck, use the lightest book powder charge (I actually use pistol powders but wont give data because of the risk if not properly loaded)
but regardless use a very light published load, seat your bullet so it touches the rifling, cast lead works very well for this, (When you close your bolt you want the bullet to contact the rifling thus pushing the case rim back against the bolt head, when you fire the round the softer annealed shoulder will flow forward taking up the space in the chamber at the shoulder.
essentially what you have done now is head space off the shoulder, so going forward when you resize, only neck size to start with, don't bump the shoulder back until your case gets very stiff to close, then you can start to slightly push the shoulder back a bump until you get smooth bolt close..
Anneal every second or third firing.
I typically get 14-16 reloads per case with med to hunting loads.
but regardless use a very light published load, seat your bullet so it touches the rifling, cast lead works very well for this, (When you close your bolt you want the bullet to contact the rifling thus pushing the case rim back against the bolt head, when you fire the round the softer annealed shoulder will flow forward taking up the space in the chamber at the shoulder.
essentially what you have done now is head space off the shoulder, so going forward when you resize, only neck size to start with, don't bump the shoulder back until your case gets very stiff to close, then you can start to slightly push the shoulder back a bump until you get smooth bolt close..
Anneal every second or third firing.
I typically get 14-16 reloads per case with med to hunting loads.
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I've used this technique for fireforming 240 gibbs as well. It works. - dan
Since the great boondoggle relegating our AR15s to the locker, my club has had a .303 service styled match the past two years so I hope to work up a good match load for my MKII this spring and I have a Central No4 target sight to mount as well. Distances are to 600 meters. The Central sights are plentiful and awesome but it took some looking to find the correct mount for the No 4 Enfield.
Off topic, but do you recommend Sierra or Hornady match bullets or something else?
Off topic, but do you recommend Sierra or Hornady match bullets or something else?
I've had better results from the Hornady's, but whatever your rifle likes. My No 5 shoots best with 180 gr hunting bullets. - dan
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It’s a crap shoot which bullet your rifle likes. Some will shoot boat tails good , a lot won’t. I have two rifles that shoot 180 spbt in 308 well. I usually try a flat base 150 or 180 and normally one will shoot well. A lot of my shooting is done with cast bullets.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I worked my way through the surplus .303 and broke down to buy a quantity of commercial FMJ. Since I intend to keep all this brass in circulation, I used the dollar store hair elastic band trick. A snap lid tube of a few thousand was $2. Two wraps on the case and roll it down to the rim, then fire. My theory is as much about holding the case on the bolt face for a strong primer strike as it is to fireform the shoulder out.
Re: O-rings, Cambodian tire sells an "O-Ring Assortment kit" of Viton O-Rings pretty cheap. If you have a post war MkII, don't bother, the vast majority of those rifles have very tight chambers, if you check brass shot in these, you'll see they don't even really stretch.
Bit late to the topic, but if you want the most precise way to proceed (I believe, but you can try and change my mind), then skip the O-ring technique.
Instead, create a false shoulder for first firing of new brass. With the sizing die adjusted to have your cases with the false shoulder chamber with a slight crush fit on the bolt closing, your virgin case is now tight against the bolt face at the rear and tight against the shoulder portion of the chamber at the front. Supported in this manner, the only way the brass can expand on firing is outward to the chamber walls. The O-ring procedure does not limit case expansion on first firing to being only outwards.
This will work whether you have a Lee-Enfield with a chamber so tight that it won't close on a case with an O-ring slipped over it, and with rifles with extremely large wartime chambers that people claim have "excessive headspace". I use a Lyman .33 M die to work the necks the least when expanding them to create the false shoulder when followed by the full length sizing die.
After first firing, if you use a Lee Collet die for resizing, you're going to get the best possible case life (and potentially better grouping than other ways of proceeding). You will find you have to eventually give cases a bit of bump when bolt closure starts getting tight, but the preparation for first firing by creating a false shoulder is a one and done step.
As far as the best brass for reloading Lee Enfields goes, as my supply of excellent HXP ball ammo and the resulting empty cases dwindled, I looked at the commercial brass on the market. After a few days down that rabbit hole with micrometers etc in hand, the closest thing to WWII/Korean War Mk VII ball ammo as far as rim thickness, volume, weight, etc is Privi Partisan. Nothing else came close in the cases I scrounged from friends. I think most who reload for Lee Enfields have the same opinion and satisfaction with Privi Partisan.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Rick - your process will work great if you are starting with new, empty brass case to reload it - create a "false shoulder" to hold against the firing pin strike - most that use store bought or commercially assembled ammo can not or will not do that - hence the "O" ring trick. I agree - it is actually "second best" way to get "fire-formed" cases that fit fully, but about only way to get cases that fit, without that wall stretch, if you are first firing the ammo and then saving the cases to reload them - the "incipient case head separation" stretch occurs upon the first firing of that case - if that has been allowed to occur, I know of no way to fix it. It would be unusual, but same can occur on a belted case - not too typical on a rimless case that "head-spaces" on it's shoulder to start with - rimmed and belted cases usually do not. In effect, one is transferring the end play control to the case shoulder - not the belt or rim as designed - hence there will be no "headspace" gauges to tell you when you have it correct - it will be the fit of that case in your rifle's chamber with your bolt, that tells you when you have it correct.
As I understand it, original British military requirement was for the case to chamber, to fire without bursting (most of the time), and then to extract - whether in a bolt action rifle or a full-auto machine gun. They did not care whether that fired brass was fit to reload or not - they did not reload it - we do - unfortunately, some times, reloaders think a rimmed case is set up the same way as a rimless case - is not the same. However that "false shoulder" idea can also be used when making rimless cases - I open up 8x57 Mauser Brass to nearly straight wall with series of expanders - then resize that case's mouth down so that case just barely chambers into my 9.3x57 rifle - is about no "end play" when I do that.
As I understand it, original British military requirement was for the case to chamber, to fire without bursting (most of the time), and then to extract - whether in a bolt action rifle or a full-auto machine gun. They did not care whether that fired brass was fit to reload or not - they did not reload it - we do - unfortunately, some times, reloaders think a rimmed case is set up the same way as a rimless case - is not the same. However that "false shoulder" idea can also be used when making rimless cases - I open up 8x57 Mauser Brass to nearly straight wall with series of expanders - then resize that case's mouth down so that case just barely chambers into my 9.3x57 rifle - is about no "end play" when I do that.
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Will also work great with once fired brass that was fired with some other rifle as well, if that's where you're starting from
If you're a reloader, but are firing commercial ammunition while at the same time being concerned with the case life of the empties more than valuing the performance of whatever bullet you are firing (meaning you prefer those commercial loads than what bullets you can choose to reload with), you presumably have figured out how to set your seating die using those commercial rounds, and then how to pull the bullets, create a false shoulder, and after that put the original charge and bullet in place.
My speculation is that there aren't many people out there with both a Lee Enfield and reloading equipment that are going to fire commercial ammunition as a way to get cases for reloading. Particularly when S&B, Winchester, etc brass is substandard to what PP offers as unprimed brass for reloading when you compare the cost of a box of loaded commercial ammunition to the cost of 50 pieces of virgin brass from PP. The 300 I'm currently rotated through I bought from Henry here at Gunputz about 3 - 5 years ago or so. At my age, I might run out my life expectancy before I wear the life expectancy of this brass out.
If on the other hand the "meh, good enough..." applies, then go with the less effort of an O-ring and accept what case stretch occurs. Or if you know your Lee Enfield has a really tight chamber, then say the same "meh, good enough.". None of those choices are wrong. It's up to the reloader prepping cases to choose which way he proceeds.
In this case, there are more than a few reloaders who are new to reloading for Lee Enfields who have never heard of the alternative of creating a false shoulder versus O-rings, dental floss, Scotch tape, etc. For them, this is another alternative to choose from.
- Location
- Western Manitoba
Rick ... My speculation is that there aren't many people out there with both a Lee Enfield and reloading equipment[/B said:
I guess we have different experiences - what makes the world go 'round. Out here, is common enough to have people show up with some empty brass in a box - they do NOT reload, but have been saving their fired brass for many years - thinking it is valuable to a person like me - they are totally amazed when I show them the "groove" inside from that first firing - what they have is a bunch of garbage to me - even though they have been saving it for years ...
You could be right - out here, it's possible somebody out-scrounged me at the range. AND also out here, after doing that, the rando brass they're gifting to me is more valuable than the self-selected brand of brass I have already.
However, also out here, I've never had a parade of people lined up to give me their saved up Lee Enfield brass.
But if they did that out here, and if it was fired from one or more other Lee Enfield rifles, I don't think just slipping an O-ring over that mysterious fired brass would be the best way to go forward if I intended to reload it for my use. I think I could just skip everything at that point, and just slowly full length resize that fired brass in slow increments until the resized brass chambered in my Lee Enfield with a crush fit. Would adding an O-ring after doing that improve the results with that already stretched brass?
New brass, or anonymous once fired fired brass... there's various options for a reloader to choose from when they will be reloading for a Lee Enfield.
I'd guess some reloaders would be equally surprised to learn of the method of using a false shoulder as others were amazed to learn from you of the groove left in the brass after first firing.
Maybe I'm not as fussy as Potashminer?
I scrounge every bit of range brass I can put my hands on.
I just sorted through 5000 + cases this afternoon.
About 4k of it was pistol brass, several types.
The last 1000+ were mixed commercial cases, Winchester, FC, PRIVI, Remington, and Dominion.
Everything from 300 Weatherby, 300Win Mag, 300WSM, 30-06, 303 Brit, 308Win, 7mm Rem Mag, 243Win and a few others.
Most were once fired. It was a tie between the most popular cartridges, 308Win/30-06/303 Brit was all within one case of each other followed up by the 7mm Rem Mag, then 300Win Mag.
I threw a half dozen once-fired 303Brit, once-fired cases away because the rifle they were fired through had a huge chamber and excessive headspace issues to the point those cases were not reloadable. One had an open crack at the expansion bulge.
I checked the inside of all of them with a 90-degree pointed "hook" used for removing pump packing to detect any indentations.
I've used a lot of once-fired or just tossed 303 cases over the years and have only had a couple lose their heads. I have many with 20+ reloads after neck sizing only.
One thing I do with such cases when I'm going to keep them for personal use, is to chamber them in the rifles I'm going to shoot them from before sizing.
If the bolt closes on them, I keep them for that rifle and neck size only, until I have to bump back the shoulder and partially resize.
Full length resizing is the death knell for cartridge cases. IMHO.
I scrounge every bit of range brass I can put my hands on.
I just sorted through 5000 + cases this afternoon.
About 4k of it was pistol brass, several types.
The last 1000+ were mixed commercial cases, Winchester, FC, PRIVI, Remington, and Dominion.
Everything from 300 Weatherby, 300Win Mag, 300WSM, 30-06, 303 Brit, 308Win, 7mm Rem Mag, 243Win and a few others.
Most were once fired. It was a tie between the most popular cartridges, 308Win/30-06/303 Brit was all within one case of each other followed up by the 7mm Rem Mag, then 300Win Mag.
I threw a half dozen once-fired 303Brit, once-fired cases away because the rifle they were fired through had a huge chamber and excessive headspace issues to the point those cases were not reloadable. One had an open crack at the expansion bulge.
I checked the inside of all of them with a 90-degree pointed "hook" used for removing pump packing to detect any indentations.
I've used a lot of once-fired or just tossed 303 cases over the years and have only had a couple lose their heads. I have many with 20+ reloads after neck sizing only.
One thing I do with such cases when I'm going to keep them for personal use, is to chamber them in the rifles I'm going to shoot them from before sizing.
If the bolt closes on them, I keep them for that rifle and neck size only, until I have to bump back the shoulder and partially resize.
Full length resizing is the death knell for cartridge cases. IMHO.
As far as the brass goes, Prvi is definitely the best available, its internal shape is correct as well as its external dimensions, it's a bit of a luck of the draw thing as to whether they chamfer the rim or not, but since we aren't silly, we don't believe in "rim lock".
