303 rifling question
- Thread starter PCB
- Start date
- Location
- Beaverlodge, Alberta
Do you mean No1 MkIV or No4 MkI?
Rifling on the SMLE Mark IV (Converted), which was th ONLY Mrk IV built, was identical to the rifling of the SMLE Mark III/III*, so he has to mean the NUMBER 4 Rifle.
ALL SMLE rifling was to the same pattern: bore bored, reamed and polished to .301 - .303, then rifled with an Enfield Cutter Box in increments of .0005", 5 grooves, left-hand, 1 turn in 10 inches, 40 passes for each and every barrel with inspections between pass series. The only exceptions were 2000 exprimental tapr-bore barrels (1000 each in 1906 and 1907, survivors removed and destroyed in 1924) and a series of experiments with pitches between 6 and 12 inches, 2 of each of which 1 was destroyed following the test. One of each remained in the Pattern Room when I was there in 1976.
Rifling of the NUMBER 4 Rifle was varied in the extreme. Ideally, the standard was the same as for the SMLE, but a small event called World War Two interfered with the plans. As a result, we have Number 4 barrels with 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 grooves, right-hand and left-hand twists and anything else you can think of. Early Savage barrels and late Long Branch barrels can have 6 grooves, but they are different, the Savage barrels having regular Savage commercial-type rifling, the Long Branch barrels being broach-cut on Bren Gun machinery from John Inglis. MILLIONS of Number 4 Rifles were made with TWO-groove barrels, 3-groove was tried and failed, some were built with 4 (which I have never seen personally).... but the ideal remained 5. Fortunately, pitch was retained at 10 inches.
True Enfield rifling is quite unique, having lands and grooves of equal width. It is the perfected form of the modern 5R rifling...... except that it was used from 1896 onwards and never had a US Patent on it. It was designed by Sir William Metford. As well, the grooves are sharp-edged and comparatively deep.
If I were to encounter a NUMBER 4 barrel with what appears to be shallow rifling, I would think immediately of a very-early-production Savage 6-groove barrel, in which case it would be normal.
Otherwise, very shallow rifling usually means a burned-out barrel and will show much more emphatically at the breech end.
Hope this helps.
ALL SMLE rifling was to the same pattern: bore bored, reamed and polished to .301 - .303, then rifled with an Enfield Cutter Box in increments of .0005", 5 grooves, left-hand, 1 turn in 10 inches, 40 passes for each and every barrel with inspections between pass series. The only exceptions were 2000 exprimental tapr-bore barrels (1000 each in 1906 and 1907, survivors removed and destroyed in 1924) and a series of experiments with pitches between 6 and 12 inches, 2 of each of which 1 was destroyed following the test. One of each remained in the Pattern Room when I was there in 1976.
Rifling of the NUMBER 4 Rifle was varied in the extreme. Ideally, the standard was the same as for the SMLE, but a small event called World War Two interfered with the plans. As a result, we have Number 4 barrels with 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 grooves, right-hand and left-hand twists and anything else you can think of. Early Savage barrels and late Long Branch barrels can have 6 grooves, but they are different, the Savage barrels having regular Savage commercial-type rifling, the Long Branch barrels being broach-cut on Bren Gun machinery from John Inglis. MILLIONS of Number 4 Rifles were made with TWO-groove barrels, 3-groove was tried and failed, some were built with 4 (which I have never seen personally).... but the ideal remained 5. Fortunately, pitch was retained at 10 inches.
True Enfield rifling is quite unique, having lands and grooves of equal width. It is the perfected form of the modern 5R rifling...... except that it was used from 1896 onwards and never had a US Patent on it. It was designed by Sir William Metford. As well, the grooves are sharp-edged and comparatively deep.
If I were to encounter a NUMBER 4 barrel with what appears to be shallow rifling, I would think immediately of a very-early-production Savage 6-groove barrel, in which case it would be normal.
Otherwise, very shallow rifling usually means a burned-out barrel and will show much more emphatically at the breech end.
Hope this helps.
Savage was set-up to do 6-groove rifling when they were given the contract by the British. Savage asked if 6-groove rifling would be okay, as that would get the rifle into production faster. Being that Britain was losing the war very quickly, they said to go ahead if it would speed things up.
This was in the very early stage of the War, just after Dunkirk, when the British were paying in the last of their gold for what they needed. Lend-lease came in later, when Britain already was just about flat broke. It was signed into law by President Roosevelt on 11 March, 1941 and went into force immediately. Lend-Lease Savages are marked "U.S. PROPERTY".
Setting up for the Number 4 was a big job, the rifle having all the latest improvements and being completely unlike other rifles. As one example, there was much more Milling and Shaping in a Lee-Enfield than in a Mauser design and a few of the cuts were extremely difficult. Do th job right and you had the fastest, slickest bolt rifle ever, and that is what Britain needed.
By mid-1942 Savage already had built more than 130,000 rifles of the million total they would produce. Not the easist thing to find but definitely existing, Savage Number 4 Mark 1 rifles with 1941 dates are to be found in a number of collections..... and it is entirely possible that one which has survived the tender attentions of Bubba just could be in the back room at your local gun shop.
Good luck!
This was in the very early stage of the War, just after Dunkirk, when the British were paying in the last of their gold for what they needed. Lend-lease came in later, when Britain already was just about flat broke. It was signed into law by President Roosevelt on 11 March, 1941 and went into force immediately. Lend-Lease Savages are marked "U.S. PROPERTY".
Setting up for the Number 4 was a big job, the rifle having all the latest improvements and being completely unlike other rifles. As one example, there was much more Milling and Shaping in a Lee-Enfield than in a Mauser design and a few of the cuts were extremely difficult. Do th job right and you had the fastest, slickest bolt rifle ever, and that is what Britain needed.
By mid-1942 Savage already had built more than 130,000 rifles of the million total they would produce. Not the easist thing to find but definitely existing, Savage Number 4 Mark 1 rifles with 1941 dates are to be found in a number of collections..... and it is entirely possible that one which has survived the tender attentions of Bubba just could be in the back room at your local gun shop.
Good luck!
"...the lend lease era, 42 or so..." The Savage contract pre-dates the Lend/Lease Act by several months, as I recall. Savage rifles actually had nothing to do with Lend/Lease until FDR had the contract changed.
"...marked "..." Had one of those on my MIU, long ago. No internet then and few good books, so I had no idea what it meant. Couldn't get the bugger to talk either. Oh, when the contract ended, all the remaining rifles, parts and machinery was sent to Canadian Arsenals-Long Branch and thence to CF units.
"...marked "..." Had one of those on my MIU, long ago. No internet then and few good books, so I had no idea what it meant. Couldn't get the bugger to talk either. Oh, when the contract ended, all the remaining rifles, parts and machinery was sent to Canadian Arsenals-Long Branch and thence to CF units.
Ok, sorry fellas I was posting with my phone so I was trying to be as brief as possible. I can't type at the best of times. My sporterized Enfield is a No.4MK1 with the stamps, England, .303, 2.22, 18.5 Tons, and NP
The other rifle is full stock with a couple of intricate stamps that are beyond my ability to describe. Enfield, 1917, SMLE III*. The stock was stamped with MLI and C.
Maybe it's an optical illusion but it just looks to me that the rifling in the older rifle has a tighter spiral.
My boys and I are new to collecting milsurps, we have a lot to learn.
The other rifle is full stock with a couple of intricate stamps that are beyond my ability to describe. Enfield, 1917, SMLE III*. The stock was stamped with MLI and C.
Maybe it's an optical illusion but it just looks to me that the rifling in the older rifle has a tighter spiral.
My boys and I are new to collecting milsurps, we have a lot to learn.
Thank you. I didn't mean to take over this thread, but I have a "U.S. PROPERTY" no.s matching Enfield Savage which I purchased for $14.95 in Winnipeg, at a Tops department store when I was 14. Excuse me, but I had to ask, when the opportunity presented. Thanks again, wonderful information.
Lee Enfield
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Republic of Alberta
There were TWO Mark IVs.
One was th Rifle, .22" Mark IV: an SMLE or older rifle converted to a .22" trainer.
The other was the Short Lee-Enfield Mark IV (Converted) .303: an old MLE converted in 1908 into an SMLE. I think these are even scarcer than the .22s. I have one here with an 1897 Body and a 1942 Barrel.
It was because of things such as this that all rifles got new names in 1926/7, all .303 Short LE types becoming Number 1, all .22" types becoming Number 2, all P-14s becoming Number 3.... and the old Boer War models finally sold off.
Hope this helps.
One was th Rifle, .22" Mark IV: an SMLE or older rifle converted to a .22" trainer.
The other was the Short Lee-Enfield Mark IV (Converted) .303: an old MLE converted in 1908 into an SMLE. I think these are even scarcer than the .22s. I have one here with an 1897 Body and a 1942 Barrel.
It was because of things such as this that all rifles got new names in 1926/7, all .303 Short LE types becoming Number 1, all .22" types becoming Number 2, all P-14s becoming Number 3.... and the old Boer War models finally sold off.
Hope this helps.
