.303 Savage Ammunition
- Thread starter odjig
- Start date
Because it fits in there doesn't mean you should put it in, this gents applies not only to ammunition, same with ladies, might fit in once you fire your shot you'll have repercussions that could last a life time! Remember kids, herpes lasts a lifetime!!!
Shawnbo...........the case head expansion you speak of is when the case fits the chamber and one is actually expanding not only the case head but this indicates barrel expansion as well. As most here know I have fireformed 300 WM in a 375 Ruger chamber and expanded the case ahead of the belt by more than 20 thou.........this is just brass movement. I too know of a couple older gentlemen who have taken many deer firing 30-30 Win in 303 Savage chambers. Most if not all 303 Savage chambers are generous enough to accommodate the slight extra length and as long as one is not reloading the cases, the web area expansion is irrelevant. I make a lot of my older Winchester cartridges by fireforming modern cases to function in the old girls...........30-40 fireformed to 35 Win is just one off the top of my head.
30-30 does not run any higher pressure than the 303 Sav so there really is no reason not to fire them in the 303 chamber. The fact that the rims are the same diameter and thickness tells me they will headspace and extract just fine........The brass ahead of this will just expand and they will shoot just fine as well...............
30-30 does not run any higher pressure than the 303 Sav so there really is no reason not to fire them in the 303 chamber. The fact that the rims are the same diameter and thickness tells me they will headspace and extract just fine........The brass ahead of this will just expand and they will shoot just fine as well...............
The 30-30 case is 90 thousandths longer than the 303 Savage from the rim face to the base of the shoulder, so any 303 that will chamber and fire 30-30 ammo has grossly excessive headspace. The newest of these rifles are 70+ years old, and the really early ones aren't known for their stellar metallurgy. Firing full power 30-30 ammunition with its 20 thousandths undersized head, in a (as you put it) 'generous' chamber, is really stupid.
My 1905 1899A 303 will not chamber empty 30-30 brass. The only way it's going in there is by running it through a full length 303 Savage die first. Ergo, rifles that have proper headspace cannot 'fireform' 30-30 Winchester ammo. Furthermore, fireforming is a process to create reusable brass. Firing 30-30 cartridges in a 303 chamber produces scrap.
My 1905 1899A 303 will not chamber empty 30-30 brass. The only way it's going in there is by running it through a full length 303 Savage die first. Ergo, rifles that have proper headspace cannot 'fireform' 30-30 Winchester ammo. Furthermore, fireforming is a process to create reusable brass. Firing 30-30 cartridges in a 303 chamber produces scrap.
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You obviously do not understand "headspace" as it applies to Rimmed cases. These cartridges both have the same rim thickness, so the shoulder position is irrevalent
as far as headspace goes. The fact that you cannot chamber a fired 30-30 case in your M99 is because it has expanded at the mouth, and does not allow the case
to enter all the way. Has nothing to do with headspace. Dave.
I understand perfectly how rimmed cases headspace, and my post does NOT say that the shoulder position determines it. If the 30-30 and 303 have the same standard headspace dimension, which they do, the only way the one with the .090" longer shoulder position can fit in the shorter chamber is if the shorter chambered rifle HAS EXCESSIVE HEADSPACE. If it doesn't, then that longer shouldered cartridge isn't going to fit, is it?
Savage 99's are notorious for bolt setback, particularly the early ones, so excessive headspace is common, hence the (stupid) practice of using improper ammo.
I was referring to new, unfired 30-30 brass not fitting in my 303. I also own, and handload for, a Marlin 336. Even if I had been referring to fired brass, your statement is completely clueless, as the neck diameter of the 303 chamber is larger than that of the 30-30.
Do some research and critical thinking before casting unfounded aspersions about someone's understanding.
AH Dave, the young man knows not of what he speaks.............
Shawnbo...........you need to go back to the dimensional drawings of both cartridges and compare them again...........And as Dave says you obviously know nothing about rimmed cartridge headspace............which is identical with the two cartridges being discussed. Any brass ahead of the rim is subject to change upon firing and is in no way related to the headspace of the cartridge...........how much change depends upon how much difference there is between chamber and case. This does not necessarily create a dangerous situation, and in this comparison it most certainly does not. You really need to have significantly more experience with reloading, wildcatting and case forming before coming onto a forum like this, spouting absolutes which are just simply wrong, to gentlemen who have 100 times your experience and firearms knowledge.
I am not trying to offend you, actually up to this point I have been quite gentle with you, but you are terribly mistaken or misinformed and firing a factory 30-30 Winchester in a 303 Savage chamber is not in the least dangerous, and has probably happened more than 100,000 times without mishap. Take a good look at the factory 38-40 chamber drawings as compared to the cartridge drawings, you will find that the chamber drawings place the shoulder significantly ahead of the cartridge drawings.........this is intentional, it is too long a story to recite now but it is also the case with the .470 NE, the shoulder dimension is well over .100" longer in the cut chamber to the cartridge dimension, again it is intentional.........How would you care to explain this ? Let me give you a hint, it has to do with reliable feeding and extraction and is not conducive to case life when reloading, unless you know these facts in advance. What lies ahead of the rim in a rimmed cartridge, or belt in a belted cartridge (which in reality is just a vey thick rim) is basically irrelevant to the chamber and will form to whatever the chamber looks like as long as the case will fit into the chamber and isn't too short or way too long. I make all my 300 Wby by fireforming W-W 300 H&H cases...........now you want to talk about a disparity in shoulder dimensions. But again it is not dangerous and the brass ahead of the belt just forms to the chamber........such is the luxury of brass. It is forming more or less to the chamber before 20,000 psi is attained, or pretty much just as the bullet leaves the case..........The same thing is happening in the 30-30 case when fired in the 303 Sav chamber, the case expands and seals the chamber more or less as the bullet is leaving the case and is in essence becoming a 303 Sav case before the bullet is 3" down the barrel.
I might add that your 1905 303 Sav will not necessarily chamber 303 Sav cases fired in a different rifle either............does this mean that your rifle is not really a 303 Sav ? I also must disagree with you that firing 30-30 in a 303 Sav produces scrap.........the rim diameter being the same +/- 2 thou will keep the rear of the cartridge centered at the back of the chamber and the bullet will keep the cartridge centered at the front of the chamber, so when fired the case should expand uniformly to the chamber and what comes out will be a reloadable 303 Sav case which may need slight trimming. Run them through your 303 Sav dies and load........there ya go.
You are new to this site, so may I suggest that instead of being so insistent that you are correct, when in fact you are not, maybe you should read and learn from those on this site, who have been doing this stuff for 45+ years. Ask questions rather than espousing incorrect information and then trying to defend it with more incorrect crap. You can never gain knowledge by being wrong and belligerently unable to admit it. Regardless of how much you think you know on any given topic, some one out there knows more..........
Dave's so called aspersions, are anything but unfounded and you have just confirmed what he said in your latest dissertation............Your lack of knowledge is becoming blatantly evident as you dig the hole deeper while trying to defend your indefensible statements.........
Shawnbo...........you need to go back to the dimensional drawings of both cartridges and compare them again...........And as Dave says you obviously know nothing about rimmed cartridge headspace............which is identical with the two cartridges being discussed. Any brass ahead of the rim is subject to change upon firing and is in no way related to the headspace of the cartridge...........how much change depends upon how much difference there is between chamber and case. This does not necessarily create a dangerous situation, and in this comparison it most certainly does not. You really need to have significantly more experience with reloading, wildcatting and case forming before coming onto a forum like this, spouting absolutes which are just simply wrong, to gentlemen who have 100 times your experience and firearms knowledge.
I am not trying to offend you, actually up to this point I have been quite gentle with you, but you are terribly mistaken or misinformed and firing a factory 30-30 Winchester in a 303 Savage chamber is not in the least dangerous, and has probably happened more than 100,000 times without mishap. Take a good look at the factory 38-40 chamber drawings as compared to the cartridge drawings, you will find that the chamber drawings place the shoulder significantly ahead of the cartridge drawings.........this is intentional, it is too long a story to recite now but it is also the case with the .470 NE, the shoulder dimension is well over .100" longer in the cut chamber to the cartridge dimension, again it is intentional.........How would you care to explain this ? Let me give you a hint, it has to do with reliable feeding and extraction and is not conducive to case life when reloading, unless you know these facts in advance. What lies ahead of the rim in a rimmed cartridge, or belt in a belted cartridge (which in reality is just a vey thick rim) is basically irrelevant to the chamber and will form to whatever the chamber looks like as long as the case will fit into the chamber and isn't too short or way too long. I make all my 300 Wby by fireforming W-W 300 H&H cases...........now you want to talk about a disparity in shoulder dimensions. But again it is not dangerous and the brass ahead of the belt just forms to the chamber........such is the luxury of brass. It is forming more or less to the chamber before 20,000 psi is attained, or pretty much just as the bullet leaves the case..........The same thing is happening in the 30-30 case when fired in the 303 Sav chamber, the case expands and seals the chamber more or less as the bullet is leaving the case and is in essence becoming a 303 Sav case before the bullet is 3" down the barrel.
I might add that your 1905 303 Sav will not necessarily chamber 303 Sav cases fired in a different rifle either............does this mean that your rifle is not really a 303 Sav ? I also must disagree with you that firing 30-30 in a 303 Sav produces scrap.........the rim diameter being the same +/- 2 thou will keep the rear of the cartridge centered at the back of the chamber and the bullet will keep the cartridge centered at the front of the chamber, so when fired the case should expand uniformly to the chamber and what comes out will be a reloadable 303 Sav case which may need slight trimming. Run them through your 303 Sav dies and load........there ya go.
You are new to this site, so may I suggest that instead of being so insistent that you are correct, when in fact you are not, maybe you should read and learn from those on this site, who have been doing this stuff for 45+ years. Ask questions rather than espousing incorrect information and then trying to defend it with more incorrect crap. You can never gain knowledge by being wrong and belligerently unable to admit it. Regardless of how much you think you know on any given topic, some one out there knows more..........
Dave's so called aspersions, are anything but unfounded and you have just confirmed what he said in your latest dissertation............Your lack of knowledge is becoming blatantly evident as you dig the hole deeper while trying to defend your indefensible statements.........
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I see now why I haven't bothered with more than a handful of posts on this crap site in the past three years.
The relationship between the 300 H&H and 300 Wby. has zero relevance to the subject at hand. I have not encountered a single source of reputable handloading reference that recommended using 30-30 Winchester cases or ammunition in 303 Savage rifles, and my personal experience bears this out. Do you even own a 303 Savage, or is your drivel mere speculation?
I probably have as much, or more, handloading experience than you do - forty years worth. Your 6,000+ posts do not make your statements any more factual, correct or relevant than mine.
