308/7.62 Nato as a Main carbine??
- Thread starter AbHobbyist
- Start date
That's why you drink beer while reloading, the slave labour is less painful.
I'm gearing up to load .308 next and it is pretty cost efficive.
My thought's based on experience
On the issue of cost 556x45 vs 762x51 the 556 has it beat hands down in all areas in service rifle the 77gr match bullets deliver better b/c at a price that is about half of the 155,168 and 175 gr match bullets. At ranges past 600m the 762 will win hands down due to superior B/C although 556 can still be a competitor it is on the downhill side of the curve on B/C . On the issue of platforms is the 762 vs the 556 it is solely based on the shooters abilities and preference. It should be noted that the there is no signifacant advantage to using a 16 in barrel past 600 m you simply are not getting enough velocity
to obtain an increase in benifits.
On the issue of cost 556x45 vs 762x51 the 556 has it beat hands down in all areas in service rifle the 77gr match bullets deliver better b/c at a price that is about half of the 155,168 and 175 gr match bullets. At ranges past 600m the 762 will win hands down due to superior B/C although 556 can still be a competitor it is on the downhill side of the curve on B/C . On the issue of platforms is the 762 vs the 556 it is solely based on the shooters abilities and preference. It should be noted that the there is no signifacant advantage to using a 16 in barrel past 600 m you simply are not getting enough velocity
to obtain an increase in benifits.
You can dramatically cut that time with a progressive press and hooking a drill up to your case trimmer. If you really want to speed things up, get a Giraud trimmer. The payback period might be longer than a simpler setup, but you will still be far ahead of factory ammo in the long run in terms of cost.
Match your equipment to your consumption needs and reloading need not be excessively time consuming.
- Location
- Vernon, BC
GT:
Im not sure what reloading set up your working with, however I have always had the philosophy that one needs to invest in the correct tools for the job at hand.
I reload my precision with an old school RCBS rock Chucker.
However for volume, I have a Dillon 550 with a trimmer attachment. I am quite sure that If I spent 10 consecutive hours at a time over the winter, there will be several cans full of ammo to shoot when the weather turns nice.
Simly food for thought.
regards
AbH
- Location
- Vernon, BC
Savage:
Excllent food for thought.
The bold portion of your statment, is it safe to asume you are refering to a 16" barreled carbine in 308/7.62 Nato??
regards
AbH
If I could reload 308 at the rate that I reload 9mm, I'd be allover a semi-auto 308. However, with having to case-lube and resize, it gets #####inly slow. factory 223 is still relatively affordable for me to buy in bulk without reloading. Here's to hoping someone will be selling remanufactured 308 and 223 very soon - Hopefully norinco will bring out the green and yellow boxes!
This weekend we loaded 902 rounds of .223 over about 8 hours, including first time setup for .223. The first day was 4hrs and only 200 rounds, this was do to issues we were having with the primer pockets and wanting to test fire our ammo before finishing the run. Once we sorted that out day 2 went much faster, hitting 702 in 4 hours. We were not going for production, just having fun, drinking beer and building square blocks of ammo on the top of his freezer.
In fairness though that is with two people, my buddy and I went halfers, so we get together and reload. We use a Dillon 650. He feeds the consumables and I pull the handle, stopping only to top off the powder when the primer tube gets refilled.
In fairness though that is with two people, my buddy and I went halfers, so we get together and reload. We use a Dillon 650. He feeds the consumables and I pull the handle, stopping only to top off the powder when the primer tube gets refilled.
I'm not sugesting 7.62 as an individual carbine for every rifleman.
Conventionally I think a 16" 7.62 NATO as a Section/Squad DM/Sharp Shooter is a no brainer though, and for SOF usage for elements with the 'arms room' concept that add the option of a 16" 7.62mm gun gives a lot of capabilities.
The M4S is off my EMC, running a Leupold 1.1-8x now.
Riser mount on the scope to clear the PEQ-15 and UNS-TLR in front when needed. We got so ANVIS-9I's at work now, so I can run the PEQ on goggle and go to Thermal for prone or more static stuff.
I just need Fusion Goggles and a thermal laser and I am set.
Conventionally I think a 16" 7.62 NATO as a Section/Squad DM/Sharp Shooter is a no brainer though, and for SOF usage for elements with the 'arms room' concept that add the option of a 16" 7.62mm gun gives a lot of capabilities.
The M4S is off my EMC, running a Leupold 1.1-8x now.
Riser mount on the scope to clear the PEQ-15 and UNS-TLR in front when needed. We got so ANVIS-9I's at work now, so I can run the PEQ on goggle and go to Thermal for prone or more static stuff.
I just need Fusion Goggles and a thermal laser and I am set.
I work Dillion 550 myself with motorized trimmer and resizing in one step. I am not sure you clean, lube and resize your cases. Add all the time up together, 100 rounds per hour is about right.
If you can produce "several" cans ( can means 1000 rounds) in 10 hours, I will hire you to reload for me.
If you can produce "several" cans ( can means 1000 rounds) in 10 hours, I will hire you to reload for me.
Reloading as much as shooting is my hobby, I get down into my room and the wife and son usually leave me alone it is a great pass time but I am also not interested in loading 1000 rounds in an hour I go at my own pace if I only get 100 done a night/day no big deal too me.
Yesterday I loaded appr 200 6.8spc and due to the extra steps I take to get enough powder in on my 95gr TTSX hunting loads as well as crimp these rounds they take longer than any other round I load for.
I also resized and cleaned appr 200 6.8spc & 80 45-70 brass yesterday going to start loading them sometime today or tomorrow night...
It is a hobby so the time I spend at it is not part of any equation that anyone can come up with.
and I want a XCR-M in 260Rem or 338 Fed because I can hunt with it if all I can get is a -M in 308 then I'll get a 308...
Yesterday I loaded appr 200 6.8spc and due to the extra steps I take to get enough powder in on my 95gr TTSX hunting loads as well as crimp these rounds they take longer than any other round I load for.
I also resized and cleaned appr 200 6.8spc & 80 45-70 brass yesterday going to start loading them sometime today or tomorrow night...
It is a hobby so the time I spend at it is not part of any equation that anyone can come up with.
and I want a XCR-M in 260Rem or 338 Fed because I can hunt with it if all I can get is a -M in 308 then I'll get a 308...
- Location
- Vernon, BC
Green Tips:
You and I are on different pages. The Can's I am talking about are the ones that come from Princess Auto, and is what I use to hold my volume reloads. I use the same sized can for 223 & 308. I find these managable, and can actually lift one of those with out straining something. While I am sure 1k cans of 308 exist, I have only ever seen creates of 308/7.62 Nato in the 1k denomination, and usually use a dolly to move them arround.
I guess at the end of the day, to each there own.
regards and all the best
AbH
You and I are on different pages. The Can's I am talking about are the ones that come from Princess Auto, and is what I use to hold my volume reloads. I use the same sized can for 223 & 308. I find these managable, and can actually lift one of those with out straining something. While I am sure 1k cans of 308 exist, I have only ever seen creates of 308/7.62 Nato in the 1k denomination, and usually use a dolly to move them arround.
I guess at the end of the day, to each there own.
regards and all the best
AbH
I don't get a lot of free time for reloading so I use a few Dillon 650s with full options and case feeders as well as the Super 1050. I use the carbide die sets and just spray case lube occasionally in the case feeder tub. I built a 6 cubic foot vibratory tumbler which will process about 15,000 cases at a time.
Its actually an older technique that was taught by the Rhodesian SAS, its only recently regained fame since Chris Costa has been using it. It works for some but not everyone (for example even in the Magpul DVD's, you see Travis shooting with a modified variation of it where his support arm is not as high as Costa's). Its not a technique for everyone but I wouldnt completely discount the technique as Travis and Costa are both excellent shooters. It provides more support when firing multiple rounds quickly and transitioning between targets.
Im one of those combat arms types using that shooting method (although I grip my rifle more like Travis then Costa) and have no problem scoring expert on the PWT3, as well as near perfect on the PWT4
But I do agree to an extent, ultimately people should do what makes them most accurate/comfortable/faster then what looks cool or whatever is the "in" way of shooting a rifle.
This technique works well with free floated handguard -did that at CFSAC all my rounds were hitting over the target(fig 14) even at 50m
The way Costa did with rotating shoulder upwards could not be done by everyone - he is flexible, has good core strength and obvious has good shoulder strength as well. It is a very muscle oriented move - if upper body strenght is not up to snuff it will tire the person out quickly.
The way Costa did with rotating shoulder upwards could not be done by everyone - he is flexible, has good core strength and obvious has good shoulder strength as well. It is a very muscle oriented move - if upper body strenght is not up to snuff it will tire the person out quickly.
Its actually an older technique that was taught by the Rhodesian SAS, its only recently regained fame since Chris Costa has been using it. It works for some but not everyone (for example even in the Magpul DVD's, you see Travis shooting with a modified variation of it where his support arm is not as high as Costa's). Its not a technique for everyone but I wouldnt completely discount the technique as Travis and Costa are both excellent shooters. It provides more support when firing multiple rounds quickly and transitioning between targets.
Im one of those combat arms types using that shooting method (although I grip my rifle more like Travis then Costa) and have no problem scoring expert on the PWT3, as well as near perfect on the PWT4
But I do agree to an extent, ultimately people should do what makes them most accurate/comfortable/faster then what looks cool or whatever is the "in" way of shooting a rifle.
Its actually an older technique that was taught by the Rhodesian SAS, its only recently regained fame since Chris Costa has been using it. It works for some but not everyone (for example even in the Magpul DVD's, you see Travis shooting with a modified variation of it where his support arm is not as high as Costa's). Its not a technique for everyone but I wouldnt completely discount the technique as Travis and Costa are both excellent shooters. It provides more support when firing multiple rounds quickly and transitioning between targets.
Im one of those combat arms types using that shooting method (although I grip my rifle more like Travis then Costa) and have no problem scoring expert on the PWT3, as well as near perfect on the PWT4
But I do agree to an extent, ultimately people should do what makes them most accurate/comfortable/faster then what looks cool or whatever is the "in" way of shooting a rifle.
I was taught some similar techniques almost 20 years ago by one of my CF machine gun course instructors.
For short and mid-range high volume fire and fully automatic suppression of a target with a 7.62 weapon like the FNC2 or even the C9 (i.e. during a bunker or trench assault), a locked forearm can help keep your groups more useful and manageable.
Not for overall accuracy or versatility, but when you can't fire from prone or supported positions and still see the target, it helps compensate for the inability to use the weapon's bipod.
I imagine it could also be be applied as effectively to a run and gun sport shoot.
As mentioned the Rhodesians and others where using this years ago, I remember havign some of them give us some training in '92 and they shot similar to that - a lot running their index finger down the handguard to better aim the gun in low light and under stress.
It was very common when people used rifles.
Jump to MP-5 usage its a small gun and your need to grab it close in, plus 9mm in a subgun has really nothing for recoil.
With the M4 and Mk18 type guns used for CQB, and the M4 RAS/RIS you just did not have the space to grab the gun, and vertical grips where in vogue as there was no room on the gun to place a hand.
My Boss (Lt. Col. Dave Lutz USMC ret.) designed the FF RAS MRE based on the requirements of a US Army Special Mission Unit, as they wanted to be able to reach out further on the M4's, yet keep their fixed front sight post.
Now with laser spillage and light occlusion issues, the fixed front sights are going bye bye, and full lenght rails can be used.
A technique that was widespread in some military communities, and adopted for use out of effect in competition circles, has become visible in open circles as more instructors are showing it.
The further out you can grip the weapon the more control you have on it, both for controlling recoil, and driving the weapon towards targets, its simple physics.
It was very common when people used rifles.
Jump to MP-5 usage its a small gun and your need to grab it close in, plus 9mm in a subgun has really nothing for recoil.
With the M4 and Mk18 type guns used for CQB, and the M4 RAS/RIS you just did not have the space to grab the gun, and vertical grips where in vogue as there was no room on the gun to place a hand.
My Boss (Lt. Col. Dave Lutz USMC ret.) designed the FF RAS MRE based on the requirements of a US Army Special Mission Unit, as they wanted to be able to reach out further on the M4's, yet keep their fixed front sight post.
Now with laser spillage and light occlusion issues, the fixed front sights are going bye bye, and full lenght rails can be used.
A technique that was widespread in some military communities, and adopted for use out of effect in competition circles, has become visible in open circles as more instructors are showing it.
The further out you can grip the weapon the more control you have on it, both for controlling recoil, and driving the weapon towards targets, its simple physics.
