.308 Amax.. need quick help!!

178 out of a 308 win? I'd use it, with confidence. A 178 out of a 300 win mag, or RUM - that I'd think twice about. It all comes down to the velocity at impact
 
Boomer said:
By the time A-Max came out I knew better, but with Sierra MKs and the old Hornady .308 168 g International HPBT match perhaps 25 or so seals until I gave up. What is your experience?
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I have thrown the A-max through deer sculls close, and far, all exited. I have puched them through brisket at distance, and it held together to grenade the heart. I've plowed shoulders with them with no issues, I can't really count the deer killed with them, well over a dozen.

I'm not a fan of SMK's as I consider the Scenar and Berger to be better, but that is only based on a sample of a few deer.

My point is, if you haven't actually shot stuff with the bullet in question, then how do you know better?

R.
 
If you refer to my post I think you will see that I made no reference specifically to the A-Max but to match bullets in general. But yes, I did suggest the fellow be ready to make a fast follow-up shot, which is hardly a point which should be contested regardless of the bullet chosen. To my knowledge, no bullet manufacturer other than Berger supports the idea of game shooting over normal ranges with match bullets. In fact a quick check of the Hornady site shows as follows:

"A-MAX® NOW featuring AMP™ bullet jackets!
Designed by match shooters for match shooters. With an ultra-low drag tip, our A-Max match bullets feature an aerodynamic secant ogive that delivers flat trajectories with excellent uniformity and concentricity. Find out more...
Rapid, explosive expansion with limited penetration.
Recommended muzzle velocity range: 2000+ fps.
These bullets are not recommended for hunting."

So to answer your question, I know better because the guys that make the bullets say so.

I'm not a fan of the "grenade inside the body" school of thought, although I accept that some knowledgeable and experienced people are.

The fact that a bullet exits an animal skull does not make it a game bullet. The head reacts to the impact of any high velocity rifle bullet like it was a pipe bomb, regardless how the bullet performs. Besides, the head makes a miserable target under most circumstances, the exceptions to which are highly unlikely when deer hunting.

The fact remains, the A-Max was never intended to be used as a game bullet, and particularly not in small bores. If someone tells me they work at a half mile from a .338 Lapua, that’s fine, I won't contest the suitability of a 300 gr match bullet on medium sized game.
 
Boomer said:
If you refer to my post I think you will see that I made no reference specifically to the A-Max but to match bullets in general. But yes, I did suggest the fellow be ready to make a fast follow-up shot, which is hardly a point which should be contested regardless of the bullet chosen. To my knowledge, no bullet manufacturer other than Berger supports the idea of game shooting over normal ranges with match bullets. In fact a quick check of the Hornady site shows as follows:

"A-MAX® NOW featuring AMP™ bullet jackets!
Designed by match shooters for match shooters. With an ultra-low drag tip, our A-Max match bullets feature an aerodynamic secant ogive that delivers flat trajectories with excellent uniformity and concentricity. Find out more...
Rapid, explosive expansion with limited penetration.
Recommended muzzle velocity range: 2000+ fps.
These bullets are not recommended for hunting."

So to answer your question, I know better because the guys that make the bullets say so.

I'm not a fan of the "grenade inside the body" school of thought, although I accept that some knowledgeable and experienced people are.

The fact that a bullet exits an animal skull does not make it a game bullet. The head reacts to the impact of any high velocity rifle bullet like it was a pipe bomb, regardless how the bullet performs. Besides, the head makes a miserable target under most circumstances, the exceptions to which are highly unlikely when deer hunting.

The fact remains, the A-Max was never intended to be used as a game bullet, and particularly not in small bores. If someone tells me they work at a half mile from a .338 Lapua, that’s fine, I won't contest the suitability of a 300 gr match bullet on medium sized game.
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Wow. Another that blindly believes everything he reads on a label.

A-max bullets, up to a few years ago WERE recommended for mid sized game by the manufacturer. Rumor is a military contract changed that, but I cannot confirm this. IF YOU HAVEN'T TRIED THEM, THEN HOW DO YOU KNOW if they work or not?
FACT: I have shot well over a dozen deer with these bullets, and in a group situation, well over 2 dozen. I have seen them smash all types of bone, and perform as most any non-locked cup and core bullets would. The majority of these shots are from 6mm calibers.
FACT: The head shots I have made show entry and exit holes of near the same diameter, no pipe bomb effect at all. There is thick, dense bone in a deer head, and if a bullet can punch through that, and survive, I would say that is as a good as test, if not better, than a shoulder shot. These head shots were with 6mm diameters as well, and at distances close and far.
FACT: As mentioned above, Hornady did recommend the A-Max as a hunting bullet for mid sized game not all that long ago.
FACT: They don't make a 300 grain A-Max in 338. If they did, I would use it.
FACT: I can't afford to guess, and speak of what I know, and have done. And I very rarely do what the hell a label tell me to do.

R.
 
The 155 and 168 AMAXs are used in hornady's tap ammunition and have devastating results on ballistic gelatin and people. A deer isn't much tougher than a person. Shot placement counts as always more than bullet type.
 
Rman said:
Wow. Another that blindly believes everything he reads on a label.

A-max bullets, up to a few years ago WERE recommended for mid sized game by the manufacturer. Rumor is a military contract changed that, but I cannot confirm this. IF YOU HAVEN'T TRIED THEM, THEN HOW DO YOU KNOW if they work or not?
FACT: I have shot well over a dozen deer with these bullets, and in a group situation, well over 2 dozen. I have seen them smash all types of bone, and perform as most any non-locked cup and core bullets would. The majority of these shots are from 6mm calibers.
FACT: The head shots I have made show entry and exit holes of near the same diameter, no pipe bomb effect at all. There is thick, dense bone in a deer head, and if a bullet can punch through that, and survive, I would say that is as a good as test, if not better, than a shoulder shot. These head shots were with 6mm diameters as well, and at distances close and far.
FACT: As mentioned above, Hornady did recommend the A-Max as a hunting bullet for mid sized game not all that long ago.
FACT: They don't make a 300 grain A-Max in 338. If they did, I would use it.
FACT: I can't afford to guess, and speak of what I know, and have done. And I very rarely do what the hell a label tell me to do.

R.
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If you're happy with the performance of a match bullet on game, that's great, continue to use it, but I have seen bullet failures when an inappropriate bullet has been used; and that's a fact. I don't recall that Hornady ever did recommend the A-Max as a game bullet but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they stopped recommending it as a game bullet because they made a change to the bullet making it more accurate but less suitable for use in the field. Or perhaps field reports got back to head office suggesting it was a bad idea in the first place. If things change, there is a reason for it and it is the prudent man who pays attention.

The benefit in greater accuracy does not compensate for the lack of uniform terminal performance when a match bullet is compared to a game bullet. I mean really, you're talking about a bullet hitting fractions of an inch closer to the intended point of aim on a target whose measurements can be expressed in feet. That goes way beyond the point of diminishing returns.

You are however correct that Hornady does not make an .338/300 A-Max, but they do make both a 250 and 285 gr HPBT match bullets in .338. I imagine that either would be better than a 6mm loaded with fast fragile bullets on medium sized game. As for your last "fact", I'm sure you didn't really mean it outside of the context of our discussion.
 
Rman said:
Wow. Another that blindly believes everything he reads on a label.

A-max bullets, up to a few years ago WERE recommended for mid sized game by the manufacturer. Rumor is a military contract changed that, but I cannot confirm this. IF YOU HAVEN'T TRIED THEM, THEN HOW DO YOU KNOW if they work or not?
FACT: I have shot well over a dozen deer with these bullets, and in a group situation, well over 2 dozen. I have seen them smash all types of bone, and perform as most any non-locked cup and core bullets would. The majority of these shots are from 6mm calibers.
FACT: The head shots I have made show entry and exit holes of near the same diameter, no pipe bomb effect at all. There is thick, dense bone in a deer head, and if a bullet can punch through that, and survive, I would say that is as a good as test, if not better, than a shoulder shot. These head shots were with 6mm diameters as well, and at distances close and far.
FACT: As mentioned above, Hornady did recommend the A-Max as a hunting bullet for mid sized game not all that long ago.
FACT: They don't make a 300 grain A-Max in 338. If they did, I would use it.
FACT: I can't afford to guess, and speak of what I know, and have done. And I very rarely do what the hell a label tell me to do.

R.
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Good post!
 
I took a island black tail with a 168gr Amax, dropped it in its tracks at 150 yards...double lung shot with exit wound...deer are small on the island, next year i am gonna use 223 with a barnes bullet
 
It's important to note that even within the same bullet lineup, different models will behave differently. The 7mm 162gr A-Max may not perform exactly like the .308 155gr A-Max, etc. Having said that, here is my experience:

Sierra MK's kill just fine.

Hornady A-Max kills just fine.

Berger VLD kills paper and steel just fine. Have yet to try them on animals.

Lapua Scenar looks good, but I have yet to shoot one. They get glowing reports from people I trust, though.
 
I believe bullet velocity and jacket thickness play a huge role in what works well and what does not.
I have shot a very large number of animals with 200 gr SMKs and 208 gr Amaxs in 30 cal from a 300 win mag as well as 300 gr SMKs from my 338 LAI and have had zero complaints from any of these animals. Some shots were broadside through the ribs, other raking shots and several head shots. To date I have yet to haveany of these bullet not perform the task of making something dead.
I prefer long distance hunting but have had several close range encounters in which these bullets worked just fine.

Determining any bullets performance on game has too many variables to consider to have a hard and fast rule in place.
I shot a moose at about 150 yards away with a 250 gr Partition years ago through the heart and lungs, yet the ##### still had enough life left to find the deepest part of the swamp. My hunting buddy that same trip put a Corlok into the belly of another moose and it flopped over on the spot.
There is no telling every time what an animal will do.
My wife used to shoot 180 gr SGKs from her 06, 1 braodside shot that blew up on the hide changed that to now using Partitions.

There is a rumour floating around that the bullet makers are purposefully discourageing the use of match bullets as "hunting" bullets so as to help the military and LE agencies avoid the fact that when hunting people they are using bullets engineered for expansion, penetration and massive tissue damage.
This probably flies well with the Kookiers of the world.
I find it odd that Federal GMM ammo, Hornady TAP ammo, Lapua ammo loaded with Scenars are all industry standards for LE snipers and all are loaded with "match" bullets. And all are truly DEVASTATING from the autopsy results I have seen.
YMMV
 
To add to the Amax total, I shot a mulie doe last year with a 168gr Amax out of my Garand. It was a quartering shot from behind, entered just behind the near side ribcage, went diagonally across the chest cavity and left a clean exit wound about the size of a loonie, taking a rib with it on the way out. Deer went maybe 40 yards before dropping. No complaints on the Amax from me.


Mark
 
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