308 AR... Looking for Options
- Thread starter NewfoundlandLaw
- Start date
There are two rifle features you need for an accurate AR10. A good SS barrel, a good match trigger.
Armalite is the best value right now if you can get one. They are quality come with SS barrels and NM two stage triggers. They are simple no thrills quality lowers and uppers. Price 2K and up. The only disadvantage is the mag system not being the most common standard.
DPMS. They are good target rifles in the SS bull barrel versions. Build quality is to lower specs and finish is good. They use common DPMS, KAC, Pmag mag system. Not a bad firearm but I do prefer Armalite. DPMS 2k for LR308 after trigger replaced with RRA NM. The stock trigger is so bad you shouldn't even consider keeping the stock one.
LMT MWS. Expensive but a very nice AR308. Same lower as KAC minus ambi bolt release and markings are different of course. I like the Monolithic rail with easy change barrel system. The issue is you want a SS barrel. Now the costs really climb unless you find a really good deal. Mine has both 16" CL and 20" SS barrels. Haven't shot it yet though.
KAC is nice but I find them too expensive for what you get. The LMT is a better bargain at this time.
On a side note the UK and New Zealand chose the LMT for their 308 semi auto DM rifles. The UK had been using them in Afghanistan. Canada used Armalites in Afghanistan and the US had fielded KAC from what Ive read. The LMT by the way was chosen by the UK over the HK. They use a 16 SS barrel. The LMT rifles we can buy are the same as those fielded.
Lots of choices. The right choices will depend on your price point and primary use.
Armalite is the best value right now if you can get one. They are quality come with SS barrels and NM two stage triggers. They are simple no thrills quality lowers and uppers. Price 2K and up. The only disadvantage is the mag system not being the most common standard.
DPMS. They are good target rifles in the SS bull barrel versions. Build quality is to lower specs and finish is good. They use common DPMS, KAC, Pmag mag system. Not a bad firearm but I do prefer Armalite. DPMS 2k for LR308 after trigger replaced with RRA NM. The stock trigger is so bad you shouldn't even consider keeping the stock one.
LMT MWS. Expensive but a very nice AR308. Same lower as KAC minus ambi bolt release and markings are different of course. I like the Monolithic rail with easy change barrel system. The issue is you want a SS barrel. Now the costs really climb unless you find a really good deal. Mine has both 16" CL and 20" SS barrels. Haven't shot it yet though.
KAC is nice but I find them too expensive for what you get. The LMT is a better bargain at this time.
On a side note the UK and New Zealand chose the LMT for their 308 semi auto DM rifles. The UK had been using them in Afghanistan. Canada used Armalites in Afghanistan and the US had fielded KAC from what Ive read. The LMT by the way was chosen by the UK over the HK. They use a 16 SS barrel. The LMT rifles we can buy are the same as those fielded.
Lots of choices. The right choices will depend on your price point and primary use.
What they guarantee is very cautious. With match grade ammo and a SS barrel .5 to .75 moa is realistic. Expect the same accuracy from a DI AR308 as that of a good tactical bolt action. But of course finding the right ammo or reloads is the key. 168 or 175 SMK loads or federal gold is a safe bet with 20-24" SS 1:11.25 twist barrels. However the 1:10 twist is another story. They seem to favour faster or heavier. 168 federal gold sucks in my DPMS yet the faster 167 Lapua shoots very nicely. Palma loads would probably work well too.
Ya Im a fan of the LMT as well. But for $2900 you get a CL barrel. Granted it's s Mike Rock and heavier contoured AR barrel but it'd still CL. The SS one is $3600 but that's the 16" SS version. If you want a 20" SS barrel it will cost you $2900 plus $950 before taxes and shipping. Still a good deal for what you get compared to the other high end competition. Note: 15% off right now if in stock. Questar has a Christmas sale right now.
A 2K dedicated target AR308 will shoot with the expensive stuff. Not as feature rich or as high in quality but they will shoot.
The XCR-M. All XCR jokes aside I've been interested in this rifle. The accuracy issues I see are the gas system, barrel locking mechanism and barrel. Adjusting the gas system will help, and the heavier barrel will also of course help. But ultimately the barrel is nothing special and I would suspect realistic performance when tuned would only be on par accuracy wise with a low end CL barreled DI AR308. A high end one with a match barrel will eat it for breakfast in accuracy.
But non restricted, AR ergos with extras, monolithic rail, good trigger and a folding stock does still hold my interest. I suspect Ill go to the dark side one of these days just to try it out.
No to the xcr-m, possible to get mediocre three round groups with it, but 300 yard five round groups were measured in feet, not inches !
Never reloaded for it, but judging by the way it dispersed vertically through a five round group, with dozens of different factory loads, there was no hope for it at all.
The dpms is the best bet for accuracy at a low price point.
But if you get one of the ones that doesn't shoot, and have to rebarrel it, you're at the same price as the lmt, with a lower quality rifle.
The cl lmt is solidly 1 moa or less. My cl barrel loved 155 scenars on 46 grains of varget, shot sub moa the majority of the time with that load.
I'm going to have G.A. Precision build me a gap-10 over the winter, supposedly it'll make my lmt look bad...
HK has over 20 different versions of the 417's, the ones sent to UK to compete were last minute entries and were not made for the criteria the UK wanted. They were also an older version, keep in mind the MR308 is basically a very close version of what the German army and Norway choose for there 417 variant. The G28 is based off the MR308, it is definetly a fantastic gun, but many of the rifles already mentioned are great as well.
Besides shooting the MR308 which I own, i have handled and fired about 150rds with an HK417 12,16,20 variant in 2009, so not much. A lot of what info I have on that rifle comes from sources in Germany, and friends in the German and Norwegian military to name a few.
CarbineOne
Regular
Not really, no. One of the most accurate non-custom .308win AR's, for sure. But nicest? Hardly.
Right now with the Armalite AR10 rifles having dropped from their previous 3K price tag to 2K I would say they are the best deal. DPMS uses 6061, has a slick sided upper so no deflector or forward assist and while I prefer it for large scopes the raised rail on the upper limits handguard options. Also things such as the bolt release are designed on the DPMS to be slicker looking but limits use. You have to use your thumb versus your palm to use the bolt release. The regular DPMS speced stuff is available but at a higher price point such as their SASS model. For. Target rifle I do like the DPMS but now with Armalite at the 2K range the DPMS is a much harder sell. Although the mag system is still a plus over the Armalite.
GAP rifle would be nice but why not just get one of the Mike Rock 5R barrels for your LMT? The CL ones are good for CL but the SS ones will give you the accuracy you're looking for without buying a new gun. Don't get me wrong I have 4 of these darn AR308 rifles so Im not saying don't get a new one if you really want it. I'm just pointing out that you'll get top grade accuracy with the 20" or 16" 1:11.25 twist 5R SS barrel. The 155 grain Palma type loads in your CL barrel isn't a surprise as it's a 1:10 twist. The SS barrel will put you in the 168-175 grain SMK and Federal Gold loading range.
I would say it is one of the nicest. But that depends on what you're using if for. I don't use my AR308 rifles as carbines. I use AR15s for that role (I fully acknowledge Im not high speed low drag with them just an amateur having fun). If using as a Carbine then yes I could see lighter high quality rifles such as the KAC being your preference. Plus the extra ambi bolt release on the lower may be worth the extra money for that use.
Built wise the LMT is every bit as nice as the KAC. These two companies are obviously working together if not more than that. The lower on the LMT is the KAC lower complete with ambi mag release just not the ambi bolt release. They have also divided their product lines in a way to limit competing with each other. For an accuracy or DM style AR I actually prefer the LMT due to the upper design and price point. As a carbine I would agree the KAC is the way to go. But then again Id go 5.56 with an ADCOR instead. When ADCOR comes out with their 308 version that will be the way to go for a carbine 308.
If money isn't an issue you won't go wrong with KAC. I just find it's very expensive compared to what else is out there and it doesn't make sense for my use. But then again I don't run my 308s as carbines. So different perspective.
Actually the 155 's should run better out of a 1:11.25. Technically...but they don't on my mws.
The 11.25 twist prefers 168 grain a-maxs.
I've got a 20" 5r ss barrel on the lmt as of 3000 rounds ago actually.
It started life with the 16" cl though.
Seen here with the 20" 5r barrel:
My experience with 1:11.25 twist in 20"-24" SS barrels are that they like the 168 and 175 ammo. It's why you see them on military rifles these days. I don't doubt there are 155 Palma style loads that they will like but I've found the 1:10 twist seems to favour those. I haven't tried any through a 1:11.25 barrrel.
Through one of the AR10 rifles some 175SMK rounds I loaded shot exceptionally well. I loaded them for a RFB but they didn't work well. When fired from the aR10 with 24" 1:11.25 SS barrel they shot very well. 175 SMK, 43.4 grains of varget. It's a decent reference point at least for reloading.
Unfortunately I haven't shot my LMT yet. I also have the 20" SS barrel. Those 168 Amax rounds you loaded looked excellent. This spring Il be putting a scope on the LMT. Too many projects right now.
If you get a GAP rifle it will be interesting to see if there are any accuracy advantages. oh and what's with the muzzle brake on your LMT?
It looks good but 308 ARs don't have that much recoil. All hassling aside it does look cool. Paying homage to the SVT40? Ok ok Ill stop for now.
Through one of the AR10 rifles some 175SMK rounds I loaded shot exceptionally well. I loaded them for a RFB but they didn't work well. When fired from the aR10 with 24" 1:11.25 SS barrel they shot very well. 175 SMK, 43.4 grains of varget. It's a decent reference point at least for reloading.
Unfortunately I haven't shot my LMT yet. I also have the 20" SS barrel. Those 168 Amax rounds you loaded looked excellent. This spring Il be putting a scope on the LMT. Too many projects right now.
If you get a GAP rifle it will be interesting to see if there are any accuracy advantages. oh and what's with the muzzle brake on your LMT?
It looks good but 308 ARs don't have that much recoil. All hassling aside it does look cool. Paying homage to the SVT40? Ok ok Ill stop for now. Typically the tighter the twist, the heavier the round they like.
The scenars mostly work well in the cl simply because they like a tighter bore. Which the cl barrels are.
The sure fire is there because I often pop the larue mounted scope off and run it with iron sights like a carbine.
Can't miss too many days at the gym if one intends to do this in an effective manner though, lol !
The load that my 20" ss prefers is 44 grains of varget, 168 amax, br2 primers, lapua brass, 2.810 oal.
The scenars mostly work well in the cl simply because they like a tighter bore. Which the cl barrels are.
The sure fire is there because I often pop the larue mounted scope off and run it with iron sights like a carbine.
Can't miss too many days at the gym if one intends to do this in an effective manner though, lol !
The load that my 20" ss prefers is 44 grains of varget, 168 amax, br2 primers, lapua brass, 2.810 oal.
I think the cut of the chamber has far greater influence on accuracy than the twist rate. It would make sense that these rifles are more accurate with the 168's & 175's because the chamber reamers are optimized for these projectiles. I don't think it's any more than that. I've never once heard someone claim poor accuracy with either bullet running 10" through 12" twist rates.
I've personally shot 168gr. A-MAX's in 8", 11.25", and 12" twist bores. That bullet just plain rocks - pure & simple. I've shot 5-shot groups in the .3's-.4's with an 8" twist .300 Blackout. It's anything BUT an inherently accurate cartridge.
- Location
- Saskatoon, SK
I thought the new armilite ar10 has provisions for the pmags??
Yup but the new ones aren't available in Canada until next year. Also from what I read you will need the matching upper so you won't be able to just use the new lower on an older upper.
Personally it doesn't matter to me. I like the current Armalite mags and have a fair number of them. If there is ever a ban on mags in the states again then you're covered as they can modify M14 mags.
If Pmags are a must then you'll have to wait if you want an Armalite.
I seem to recall that the LMT MWS CL barrels are also Mike Rock and the process used is designed to prevent tighter bores. I understand this has been the case with most CL barrel the last few years and why accuracy has improved a fair amount in that time frame.
Also the 155 loads are fairly standard for Palma shooters with 1:10 twist barrels that aren't chrome lined.
A Load that works well for 24" SS 1:11.25
175SMK 2.8 OAL, 43.4 Varget, BR2 primers and Federal brass.
Cool thread. Enjoying it and there's some good info.
