.308 Bullet Weights?

sheephunter said:
Just curious why you think a round-nose bullet makes a larger entry wound?
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The entrance wound from a round nosed bullet is not necessarily larger, but a spitzer typically creates a sphincter type opening, that closes quickly after the tissue has had a chance to relax. The nerve endings at the skin and surface musculature are less traumatized with the passing of a ballistically efficient bullet, but when impacted by a hemispherical nosed, parallel sided bullet, skin and tissue at the entry site are cut full caliber and do not close up easily on most game, under most conditions, thus providing a better blood trail and allowing cold air to enter the body cavity.
 
todbartell said:
and since when does cold air entering the body kill? how do I survive in the winter? :D
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Cold air entering the body cavity brings about shock more quickly if the wound is not immediately fatal. Next winter punch a hole in your belly and see if you are debilitated by the wound faster than can be accounted for by the blood loss.
 
Standard bullets for practice and premiums for hunting. In my 30-06 i decided to use 165-168gr bullets. previously used 180gr and with the barnes TSX . Looking for a bit more range and the TSX will weight 168gr when its all over. So, considering the BC of a 165gr Hornaday Interlock, which is an excellant bullet on deer size game, and the higher BC of the 168gr TSX-BT . What I have done is run the Hornaday faster than the TSX-BT, at 300m the two rounds are about an inch in the differance on trajectory, at 100m they are almost identical. My Sako is a good shooter and is accurate with most any load combo. The premiums get the nod for moose sized animals bbear included the hornadays for everything else including plinking.
 
todbartell said:
and since when does cold air entering the body kill? how do I survive in the winter? :D
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X2, Its more the fact that air is going where it shouldn't be going like a sucking chest wound that hinders the function of the lungs or puts pressure on other organs. Got that from my boy the paramedic. :D
 
Boomer said:
The entrance wound from a round nosed bullet is not necessarily larger, but a spitzer typically creates a sphincter type opening, that closes quickly after the tissue has had a chance to relax. The nerve endings at the skin and surface musculature are less traumatized with the passing of a ballistically efficient bullet, but when impacted by a hemispherical nosed, parallel sided bullet, skin and tissue at the entry site are cut full caliber and do not close up easily on most game, under most conditions, thus providing a better blood trail and allowing cold air to enter the body cavity.
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Boomer I don't agree with your statement. While a round nose make make a larger crush hole going through meat there is no way I can agree it makes a caliber sized hole through the hide. All I have to do to prove it is shoot a piece of paper, all nose shapes punch the same style of hole through the paper with the exception of the one designed specifically for paper punching competitions, the wad cutter. Just flatten out a paper target and look at how much of the paper was pushed through the hole by the bullet. Paper is much thinner, more fragile and backed by a hard surface as compared to the hide of an animal which is elastic and mounted on a flexible surface. All bullets penetrate the same way by stretching the hide until it fails.
 
Boomer said:
Cold air entering the body cavity brings about shock more quickly if the wound is not immediately fatal. Next winter punch a hole in your belly and see if you are debilitated by the wound faster than can be accounted for by the blood loss.
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Warm or cold air entering the chest cavity is a bad thing but it's got zero to do with temperature and everything to do with pressure. Your lungs operate in a bit of a vaccuum and if that pressure changes (hole into chest cavity or diaphragm) the lungs can no longer fully inflate which can lead to death. The classic sucking chest wound.
 
Omega said:
Boomer I don't agree with your statement. While a round nose make make a larger crush hole going through meat there is no way I can agree it makes a caliber sized hole through the hide. All I have to do to prove it is shoot a piece of paper, all nose shapes punch the same style of hole through the paper with the exception of the one designed specifically for paper punching competitions, the wad cutter. Just flatten out a paper target and look at how much of the paper was pushed through the hole by the bullet. Paper is much thinner, more fragile and backed by a hard surface as compared to the hide of an animal which is elastic and mounted on a flexible surface. All bullets penetrate the same way by stretching the hide until it fails.
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Boomers target shoots down both sides to my mind.
A paper target with a nice new backing behind it typically has paper punch type holes. Paper hanging over a shot out backing typically has holes that close in after the bullet has passed.
A game animal of course has neither. It has backing to the hide, but it's not a solid backing either.
You all need to start over with a new arguement. :D
 
sheephunter said:
Warm or cold air entering the chest cavity is a bad thing but it's got zero to do with temperature and everything to do with pressure. Your lungs operate in a bit of a vaccuum and if that pressure changes (hole into chest cavity or diaphragm) the lungs can no longer fully inflate which can lead to death. The classic sucking chest wound.
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Many things complicate a bullet wound that is not immediately fatal, and a drop in core temperature leading to the onset of shock is one. Shock brings about a number of symptoms but may include tremors, irregular heart beat, irregular respiratory movements, and mental apathy. Cold air refers to the temperature of any air that is cooler than the inside of the body cavity, but the greater the difference the greater the complication. If the chest wall is penetrated allowing air into the chest cavity and preventing the lungs from expanding, that is another complication. Bone fragments from a broken ribs or other bones projected into vital organs is another. Pain can also make a non-lethal wound debilitating. When a number of these elements come together, a game animal's ability to escape is compromised should the shot be nonfatal.
 
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Boomer said:
Many things complicate a bullet wound that is not immediately fatal, and a drop in core temperature leading to the onset of shock is one. Shock brings about a number of symptoms but may include tremors, irregular heart beat, irregular respiratory movements, and mental apathy. Cold air refers to the temperature of any air that is cooler than the inside of the body cavity, but the greater the difference the greater the complication. If the chest wall is penetrated allowing air into the chest cavity and preventing the lungs from expanding, that is another complication. Bone fragments from a broken ribs or other bones projected into vital organs is another. Pain can also make a non-lethal wound debilitating. When a number of these elements come together, a game animal's ability to escape is compromised should the shot be nonfatal.
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Yes, shock will set in with a loss of blood and a drop in body temperature but you a reaching if you think a .30 hole will let enough cold air in to make any difference. Shock kills slowly by loss of blood and the body temperature dropping due to the outside temperature, not the minute amount seeping in through a bullet wound. That was a reach Boomer but nice try :D
 
sheephunter said:
Yes, shock will set in with a loss of blood and a drop in body temperature but you a reaching if you think a .30 hole will let enough cold air in to make any difference. Shock kills slowly by loss of blood and the body temperature dropping due to the outside temperature, not the minute amount seeping in through a bullet wound. That was a reach Boomer but nice try :D
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Perhaps you need to read my post again. I didn't say anything about shock in of itself killing a game animal. What I said was that a number of elements associated with a gunshot wound could prevent a wounded animal from getting away. Therefore, a full caliber hole which lets blood out, and cold air into the body complicates the animal's ability to escape where the wound is not lethal. This is a quality in bullet performance that a hunter should embrace.


edited to add . . .
The blood from an entry wounds caused by a hemispherical parallel sided bullet does not seep, rather it runs quite freely, unlike the wounds caused from spitzers which you must be more familiar with.
 
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Boomer said:
Cold air entering the body cavity brings about shock more quickly if the wound is not immediately fatal. Next winter punch a hole in your belly and see if you are debilitated by the wound faster than can be accounted for by the blood loss.
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OI volunteer to shoot bartell in both summer and winter, and measure effects of cold air:)
 
I rather doubt the temperature of the small amount of air entering a bullet wound has much if any effect on causing shock. Some studies have shown that colder temperatures do slow down clotting but these tests involve skin temperature.
It would seem the effect of a bullet wound on breathing is related to the mechanics of breathing, only a very small amount of air can disrupt the pressure differences required for air to enter the lungs. The few ounces of air would be quickly warmed by the mass of the deer's body. Every breath that enters the body during normal breathing is colder than the body core unless temperatures are in the range of 98.6F or higher. This amount of air is greater than the amount a small bullet hole allows in.


As for bullet weights in my 30-06 ( almost a twin of the .308) I used 150 gr for deer until I began reloading when I switched to 165 Hornady. For moose or elk I go to 180 Coreloct or old Silver Tips. I did try Partitions but my gun does not shoot them as well and i have seen them seperate and fail to give as much penetration as I find with the 165 cup and cores.
 
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That's a good point Murf, and shock is undoubtedly brought about more by trauma and blood loss than by the injection of cold air through a bullet wound. However, a wounded animal that is loosing blood at an alarming rate is going to have difficulty staying warm. If the wound effects the pressure inside the lungs, there can be a significant passage of air through that bullet wound as the lungs attempt to overcome the presence of air inside the chest. The harder the wounded animal breaths, the greater the volume of air that is being drawn directly into the chest through the wound. A full diameter hole that has not closed up with skin, tissue, or fat complicates the situation as the animal has no means of plugging the hole to make it air tight, and the air drawn into the chest through that hole has had no warming as does air with normal passage through the trachea. When everything is going wrong, even the little things make a difference. All the elements related to a nonfatal wound, are dependent upon the effect of the bullet, and placement of the shot. These elements combine to lead to shock, and shock complicates not only the animal's physical state but also it's ability to follow the thought process necessary to elude a pursuer.
 
well went up again yesterday this time with 180 grain WSX no 165's yet as all WSX 165's in town seem to be sold out at this time....SERIOUSLY can't find any WSX 165's and I can't easily afford 5 bucks more for a box of ammo as I'm on a very limited budget at this time.

Anyways the 180s grouped nice at 100 yards considering I've only gone shooting TWICE now and with a gun I know little about.

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Thats the 100 yard shots NOT bad I'm thinking

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Took a 15 minute break to change the lay of the backing before I started shooting this one as this one EXPLODED ON IMPACT the back of the paper is blackened my 25 Yard shooting also degraded after this as you'll see in the next link as I kept expected to hear a whining noise again.

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as you can see my shooting got worse at the 25 yard line but hopefully only temporary. I should also mention I was sorta flinching every time I pulled the trigger

YAY it worked this time the pictures showed up
 
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