.308, Forster neck turner, Lee collet neck size die, Neck tension

[MartyK2500]

Hey, since waiting on new barrel, i am prepping my necks.
For factory savage, i would turn 13.5 thous just to uniform everything, now with match barrel on the way, getting all my necks down to 12.5 thou as suggested.
And with the reading i have been doing on neck tension lately, it got me to pay attention to what dimension my tooling was really at.

By the way, every 15-20 casings, i have to remove pilot out of neck turner and spin it in some 1000 grit paper to remove brass deposits on it.
Never used lube on pilot.

Here is my question : What diameter is your tooling and how much are you sizing necks at?
This will give me an idea, of what people are running for neck tension, and if my tooling is on par with the majority.

My own stuff :
Got 2x Forster pilots, as i had bought a second when 1st one was really sticky. Polished one is 305.5 thous, untouched one is 306 thous
Lee Collet die mandrel dia : 304/305 thous. It seems to taper ever so slightly.
Inside dia of necks once sized : 305 thous
175 SMKs : 308 thous


Just by measuring this today, i do see that my pilot is slightly bigger than my mandrel.
Seeing how this goes as far as replies, i guess i could either continue to polish pilot when needed and will eventually end up being 305 thous (and end up with 3 thous neck tension), or could research if i could get a 306 thous mandrel and use factory unaltered pilot (and end up with 2 thous neck tension).

I may be splitting hairs here, it's winter, already dry fire pistol 30-45 mins a day, use my rowing machine everyday, shoot pistol indoors twice a week, and don't watch TV.
Only so many beers i can drink before getting real bored, this kind of stuff keeps me busy.

 

[Lead hammer]

It looks like you can make both the 0.002 and 0.003. I would end up testing and shooting both for accuracy differences. If the 0.002 one grips the bullet good, and you are unable to push the bullet into the case further ( push on a piece of wood ) then I would start there. Are you going to hunt with that rifle? Or just bench single feed?

 

[6MT]

...

 

[MartyK2500]

It looks like you can make both the 0.002 and 0.003. I would end up testing and shooting both for accuracy differences. If the 0.002 one grips the bullet good, and you are unable to push the bullet into the case further ( push on a piece of wood ) then I would start there. Are you going to hunt with that rifle? Or just bench single feed?

Magazine feed, range work only.
What puzzles me, there are so many claims that Lee collet size and Forster neck turning go perfect together out of the box.
In my case for having even purchased a second pilot, they are 1 thou larger than the actual resized neck dia, which doesn't seem normal.
Either i got a skinny mandrel in my collet die, or either other guys spin down pilot and don't say.

I've never turned my necks (Lapua brass). I use the Whidden neck sizing bump dies. With the Lapua brass, it's very consistent. Even after 18 to 20 firings. Runout is less than .0005". It is my belief that neck turning is over rated, but you'll get a lot of opinions both ways on this. With bushing dies, when the correct bushing size is chosen and in combination with annealing, gives perfect and repeatable neck tension. Also a decent press that floats (read: a co-ax), assures concentricity. And .002-.003 is desired neck tension. YMMV.

Thanks for confirming desired neck tension, it seems i am within desired parameters.
Now for neck turning, many different opinions of all sorts.
I just know that in my case, it corrects my brass from past prepping mistakes. Once i get them all uniformed to 12.5, i will make a decision to carry on or not.
New match barrel might dictate a tight clearance and get me going anyways.
I was interested in Co-ax, but seems i can get away with 1 thou or under runout using Lee press.

Money saved on co-ax will go towards building materials.
Gun room is now too small (9'x8'), i will refinish this room as my office, and build a new gun room (unfinished basement except for existing gun room) and going for 13'x11'

 

[Lead hammer]

Magazine feed, range work only.
What puzzles me, there are so many claims that Lee collet size and Forster neck turning go perfect together out of the box.
In my case for having even purchased a second pilot, they are 1 thou larger than the actual resized neck dia, which doesn't seem normal.
Either i got a skinny mandrel in my collet die, or either other guys spin down pilot and don't say.


When you size a case, what is the case neck OD again? Make a dummy round up and see what you got by measuring loaded round case neck OD. Give the round a push test and see if it holds, since you need it to survive in the mag. I have read that some guys need to spin them down to get enough neck tension. I have bad luck generally and will probably need to adjust mine lol.

 

[RonR]

By the way, every 15-20 casings, i have to remove pilot out of neck turner and spin it in some 1000 grit paper to remove brass deposits on it. Never used lube on pilot.

Here is my question : What diameter is your tooling and how much are you sizing necks at?

What puzzles me, there are so many claims that Lee collet size and Forster neck turning go perfect together out of the box. In my case for having even purchased a second pilot, they are 1 thou larger than the actual resized neck dia, which doesn't seem normal. Either i got a skinny mandrel in my collet die, or either other guys spin down pilot and don't say.

Imperial sizing wax on the cutter mandrel is what's done here. Eliminates chatter and galling. Don't know what RPM you are spinning it at.

K&M system (via Mystic) is what's used here. I could never get the collet die set up so that each case had the same I.D. consistently for the mandrel (likely due to crappy brass at the time and various hardness levels) so purchased the expanding K & M mandrel and die that fits the press. Problem solved, at least for myself.

K&M system not the most automated and hand friendly but they have everything needed from start to finish for a guy like myself to eliminate the variables for consistent neck turning. That's why I went that way.

Regards
Ronr

 

[MartyK2500]

Imperial sizing wax on the cutter mandrel is what's done here. Eliminates chatter and galling. Don't know what RPM you are spinning it at.

K&M system (via Mystic) is what's used here. I could never get the collet die set up so that each case had the same I.D. consistently for the mandrel (likely due to crappy brass at the time and various hardness levels) so purchased the expanding K & M mandrel and die that fits the press. Problem solved, at least for myself.

K&M system not the most automated and hand friendly but they have everything needed from start to finish for a guy like myself to eliminate the variables for consistent neck turning. That's why I went that way.

Regards
Ronr

Once you have used imperial sizing wax, do you need to tumble once more?
I have a cordless 12v compact drill, set on low speed. And do not fully engage trigger for it to slow down more.

When using expander, i imagine you would need another resize after turning?
Do you neck size before expander also?

If K&M is hand operated it's beyond my level of patience

 

[rick357]

Once you have used imperial sizing wax, do you need to tumble once more?
I have a cordless 12v compact drill, set on low speed. And do not fully engage trigger for it to slow down more.

When using expander, i imagine you would need another resize after turning?
Do you neck size before expander also?

If K&M is hand operated it's beyond my level of patience

Any time there is wax/lube on the exterior of the brass it needs to be cleaned off. A quick wipe with a clean cotton rag should get any remaining excess mostly off. Not sure how much you are using on the brass though so up to you to know for sure. I don't wet clean so the inside of my necks are carbon coated which seems to be all that is required for neck turning with my gear. If I feel it is necessary to lube before neck turning, I will use a dry neck lube. No need to clean it off afterward.

Not sure exactly what sequence you are following. Never used K&M tools. My neck turning routine with the tools I use goes like this:
1) Dry tumble clean.
- get the brass cleaned up on the outside to keep the Redding Competition dies in good shape.
2) Lube
- I use homemade Lanolin based stuff as per online instructions.
3) Full length resize with Redding die to size body and bump shoulder.
- Redding FL die doesn't touch the neck.
4) Neck size with Lee collet die.
- for .223Rem, mandrel on Lee die results in ID neck size of 0.2215", a 0.0025 reduction for perfect tension for my bolt gun. I was expanding with 21st Century expander prior to neck turning, but found that with the TiN mandrel on the neck lathe, it is not required for .223, and it doesn't look like it is necessary for 6.5CM either. If neck sizing with a different die, or steel mandrels, it may be. The neck has to be able to fit on the neck mandrel without too much friction/grip, yet must fit so that it is accurately centered. If it is too tight, something will have to give at some point.
5) Trim to length.
- absolutely necessary for the 21st Century Neck lathe if you want to run it in what I call 'production' mode.
6) Turn neck with 21st Century lathe. I have carbide cutter and TiN mandrel.
- since the length of the cut is controlled by the distance the neck can move on the mandrel, and that is controlled by the end of the mandrel meeting the mouth of the case, if you don't want to be staring intently through the chaff to see exactly where the cutter is in relation to the start of the shoulder, a very consistent neck length to the shoulder is absolutely necessary. I use a 12V drill to drive the tool.
7) Prime, charge, and seat bullet.

Notes:
- I have settled on either PPU or Lapua brass. Both are very consistent with the edge going to Lapua.
- I only reload my own brass.
- I always just load and shoot the brass when new. It makes for a nice plinking/fouling warm up round at a minimum. Why go through the time, energy and material wasting routine of specifically fire-forming if it isn't necessary. If I was fire-forming to a different caliber that is a different scenario but I'm not. The new brass will end up fire formed to my chamber anyway. After the first firing, I go through the above neck turning routine to true up everything. After this the brass does not get neck turned until required in my experience, at between 8 and 10 reloads.
- All this extra work, and some might say overkill even then, is for highly accurate bolt guns when you are trying to eek out the last teeny bit of accuracy. I wouldn't do it for an average hunting rifle. It is a total waste of time for any sort of gas operated gun.

 

[RonR]

Once you have used imperial sizing wax, do you need to tumble once more?

Yes. Ultrasonic clean on this end. Dry lube necks prior to seating after that. I suspected this may be your next question. Read further down below why this isn't a concern for myself but those that frequently neck turn it may be a change in the process.

I have a cordless 12v compact drill, set on low speed. And do not fully engage trigger for it to slow down more.

Drill can be used with K&M system. I use a drill here as well. Set speed...was that your trick for the tie strap?

When using expander, i imagine you would need another resize after turning?

Yes. Collet die after.

Do you neck size before expander also?

Here, the neck turning is performed prior to fire forming. IIRC the new brass inside neck diameter was sufficient to turn right away. If you have fire formed cases then yes the necks would be sized down so that the sizer die/mandrel can create the proper neck size for turning.

Aside: Mystic suggests fire forming with cream of wheat method first then neck turning but my barrels aren't high end, where shot count and barrel life is for competition. My thoughts up to this point is a one and done for turning, nothing more frequent than that at the moment. That being said I haven't spun a complete batch of cases after 4x firing but I have on a few. And yes a person may be surprised at how much material comes off. I may introduce neck turning after annealing after 4x to keep the donut phenomenon from appearing and of course to keep neck thickness/neck tension consistent. This is why the cleaning operation doesn't have impact because for now, neck turning is done once at the beginning and will be introduced in unison with another cleaning cycle. i.e. annealing. YMMV

(I have to give a shout out to Rooster that helped me out with the neck turning stuff. He's a wiz at that stuff and knows his long range stuff as well.)

If K&M is hand operated it's beyond my level of patience

I use a drill here. The other end is a hand held.

Regards
Ronr

 

[RonR]

- I have settled on either PPU or Lapua brass. Both are very consistent with the edge going to Lapua..

This is what I have found as well.

- All this extra work, and some might say overkill even then, is for highly accurate bolt guns when you are trying to eek out the last teeny bit of accuracy. I wouldn't do it for an average hunting rifle.

Agree with this. For myself, I am here now because my reloads didn't have any consistency. Had I just started with more consistent brass I would not have all this added tooling and process. Perhaps I can thank the Federal brass I cut my teeth on? lol

Regards
Ronr

 

[MartyK2500]

Thanks for the detailed replies guys i went through it all.
Most things i would do already (as in lapua brass and reload process)

What i was most curious about was size of tooling so I could make my own conclusions for neck turning
My friend has the hornady neck turner.
His lee collet die mandrel is just like mine at 305
His neck turning pilot is 304.5 and fits just right

So logic has it that a 306 pilot will not fit well in a 305 neck without expanding
Took the lazy route, put my pilot in a drill and spun it at high speed in 1000 grit sandpaper.
Now is right between 304.5 and 305, shinny mirror finish as F, and seems to glide right in the necks, no lube or expander needed

I will go this way until something bites me in the ass and realise i shouldn’t of done it.
Going with this process sits me at exactly 3 thou neck tension

 

[sharp shooter]

I have a neck turner, and Lee collet die set up for my 204. I also have a Forster FL bench rest die. The Forster die makes just as of accurate groups.

Also,
I would likely have not gotten into neck turning if I could buy Lapua brass for my 204. I am a big believer in Forster benchrest dies and Lapua brass to make your “hunting” rifle the most accurate as this setup takes out so many possible problematic scenarios out of the equation.