.308 Load Development Story from a Rookie, for Rookies
- Thread starter Gunneegoogoo
- Start date
- Location
- Jameson, SK
- Location
- Jameson, SK
Problem solved in 5min with the metal chop saw and a fine file.
Common sense makes sense.....
Common sense makes sense.....
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
When the targets get ripped from the target stands and fly across the prairie, they usually take a break for lunch
Bore guides.. what bore guide???
yeah, I am a heretic
Jerry
- Location
- Jameson, SK
Oh???!!!
I wondered about that.... The flex/scratch thing didn't exactly ring true with me....
Tell us more.
I wondered about that.... The flex/scratch thing didn't exactly ring true with me....
Tell us more.
- Location
- Jameson, SK
After standing over top of the open necks of 100 virgin lapua brass I've decided that next time I'll be putting them all through the deburr and chamfer tool prior to first loading. I'm guessing that a lot of the neck tension/feel issues I'm having are from all the little pings I can see on the necks...
I did use my 21st primer hole uniformer, and I'll be doing that again.
I did use my 21st primer hole uniformer, and I'll be doing that again.
- Location
- Jameson, SK
I also grabbed a hornady lock 'n' load OAL gauge today. I came up with a final Case Base to Ogive length of 2.115".
This is something I should've done from the get-go.
It was about 55$, and then 8$ for the modified case that you need to make it work.
There's a straight one for bolt action and falling block actions, and a curved one for semi's/pumps/levers.
I came up with about the same with the sharpie method, but it was with quite a bit of uncertainty. This thing is 60$ well spent IMO. If you send Hornady 15$ and 2 fired cases they'll make you your own personal modified cases. If you're good with metal working you can do your own. All they do is drill and tap the case base, and the inside ream the neck to allow the bullet to slip in and out easily. Seems that doing it wouldn't be hard, but finding the right tap and an inside neck reamer might be a PITA.
I chose 2.110 as my first seating depth, and looking back on it it should've been deeper to limit the possibility of jamming into the lands and altering pressure. I've now gone to 2.080".
GGG
This is something I should've done from the get-go.
It was about 55$, and then 8$ for the modified case that you need to make it work.
There's a straight one for bolt action and falling block actions, and a curved one for semi's/pumps/levers.
I came up with about the same with the sharpie method, but it was with quite a bit of uncertainty. This thing is 60$ well spent IMO. If you send Hornady 15$ and 2 fired cases they'll make you your own personal modified cases. If you're good with metal working you can do your own. All they do is drill and tap the case base, and the inside ream the neck to allow the bullet to slip in and out easily. Seems that doing it wouldn't be hard, but finding the right tap and an inside neck reamer might be a PITA.
I chose 2.110 as my first seating depth, and looking back on it it should've been deeper to limit the possibility of jamming into the lands and altering pressure. I've now gone to 2.080".
GGG
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- Location
- Jameson, SK
Loaded up 25 more last night. Dropped back down to 41.8, 42.0, 42.2, 42.6 and 5 more at 43.8. All at 2.080" CBTO.
I had to use two of the 43.8's to re-zero cause my Med ATRS rings arrived.....
Something was up with my POS chrono, and I got no velocities....
Below is what it did. Today's group start dead Center and go right and down. The groups for the most part tightened up. I think I was a bit more "on" as well.
The group in the bottom right stared as 3 in a wee tint cloverleaf at 200. They had pretty decent brass swipes, and the bolt was a slightly tough lift. Once those 3 were gone I had 5 empties left on the reloading bench to make an even 100, so I booted it inside and loaded up 5 more at 43.8 to see if I could drive 5 more into that cloverleaf. Then it all went to hell. F.
So question: do pressures increase as the barrel/chamber heats up?? Does my gun really like that 43.8 hot load?? I wasn't rapid firing, but probably did 1 per 1 to 1.5 minutes. The barrel was warm prior to heading in. The barrel had cooled before I got back out for the last 5.
I think I'm gonna try working around that 42 range, provided it has a decent velocity once my damn chrono starts working.... I think the problem was that I had it in my little sound deadening bale house, and I should've taken the white plastic things off.
Now that I have 100 fireformed brass they're gettin' tumbled tonight, then turned and annealed, chamfered and deburred and we'll see what I can get out of it....
I had to use two of the 43.8's to re-zero cause my Med ATRS rings arrived.....
Something was up with my POS chrono, and I got no velocities....
Below is what it did. Today's group start dead Center and go right and down. The groups for the most part tightened up. I think I was a bit more "on" as well.
The group in the bottom right stared as 3 in a wee tint cloverleaf at 200. They had pretty decent brass swipes, and the bolt was a slightly tough lift. Once those 3 were gone I had 5 empties left on the reloading bench to make an even 100, so I booted it inside and loaded up 5 more at 43.8 to see if I could drive 5 more into that cloverleaf. Then it all went to hell. F.
So question: do pressures increase as the barrel/chamber heats up?? Does my gun really like that 43.8 hot load?? I wasn't rapid firing, but probably did 1 per 1 to 1.5 minutes. The barrel was warm prior to heading in. The barrel had cooled before I got back out for the last 5.
I think I'm gonna try working around that 42 range, provided it has a decent velocity once my damn chrono starts working.... I think the problem was that I had it in my little sound deadening bale house, and I should've taken the white plastic things off.
Now that I have 100 fireformed brass they're gettin' tumbled tonight, then turned and annealed, chamfered and deburred and we'll see what I can get out of it....
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Another shooter (MikeinCalgary), just did my load tuning test with his new Ruger PRS and plotted this data. See my website for links to the articles.
Testing was done with 2rds per powder step at 300m.... pretty darn good shooting for a factory rifle.
This sums up why I feel my process is so powerful without eating up alot of components. Very clearly see where the nodes are and now he can go back to retest in larger size groups to confirm. It will also be to chart where he is starting to see pressure signs relative to the accuracy nodes.
There will be nodes that will not continue to be accurate as they are "unstable" and can be dropped - small changes in powder charge lead to big changes in group size. But there will be nodes that will repeat in larger rd groups and be tolerant of small changes in powder charge... pick the one in the magnum pressure range, with the lowest amount of vertical and enjoy.
"Standard" pressure loading would be in the 39.4 to 39.6gr node
"Magnum" pressure would be in the 40 to 40.2gr node (when near max pressure, small change in powder lead to big changes in operating pressure).
Over pressure - 41gr load... look at how unstable it is with very small changes leading to big group size changes. This is the load that will drive you crazy in varying temps. Odds are pressure signs will also start to occur
Most peak accuracy nodes are only 0.2 to 0.4gr wide for most common cartridges including standard magnum cases.
In this example, I would retest 39.9, 40.0, 40.1, 40.2 and 40.3gr in 2X5rds groups and see what looks the best...least amount of vertical. I wouldn't bother with OAL testing as you aren't going to improve over this level of accuracy at 300m
My guess is this load will settle out around the 2's to low 3's in larger size groups... and again, depending on how stable the barrel is to heat.
Regardless, this is one great shooting rifle.
Jerry
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- Location
- On a sand bar in the Atlantic Ocean.
Gunneegoogoo,
I think I found one of those "nodes" that Jerry speaks of.
Yesterday I tried a few progressive loads of N550 behind a Hornady 168 gr HPBT Match bullet. The Federal cases were full length sized, trimmed and then primed with Federal lg. rifle primers. Bullets were seated to 2.808". The rifle is a Ruger Precision Rifle with a Vortex HS/LR scope.
Fired at 100 yds. (I know it's short range, but I was just working up the load)
I started at 33.4 gr, then 33.9 gr and finally 44.4gr. the node was at the 44.4 gr. mark.
I fired the first 3 and saw what looked like one big hole. I fired the forth round and proved without a doubt that I suck.
I think I found one of those "nodes" that Jerry speaks of.
Yesterday I tried a few progressive loads of N550 behind a Hornady 168 gr HPBT Match bullet. The Federal cases were full length sized, trimmed and then primed with Federal lg. rifle primers. Bullets were seated to 2.808". The rifle is a Ruger Precision Rifle with a Vortex HS/LR scope.
Fired at 100 yds. (I know it's short range, but I was just working up the load)
I started at 33.4 gr, then 33.9 gr and finally 44.4gr. the node was at the 44.4 gr. mark.
I fired the first 3 and saw what looked like one big hole. I fired the forth round and proved without a doubt that I suck.
- Location
- Jameson, SK
Gunneegoogoo,
I think I found one of those "nodes" that Jerry speaks of.
Yesterday I tried a few progressive loads of N550 behind a Hornady 168 gr HPBT Match bullet. The Federal cases were full length sized, trimmed and then primed with Federal lg. rifle primers. Bullets were seated to 2.808". The rifle is a Ruger Precision Rifle with a Vortex HS/LR scope.
Fired at 100 yds. (I know it's short range, but I was just working up the load)
I started at 33.4 gr, then 33.9 gr and finally 44.4gr. the node was at the 44.4 gr. mark.
I fired the first 3 and saw what looked like one big hole. I fired the forth round and proved without a doubt that I suck.
hahahahah - I hear you!!!! just when delusions of grandeur start entering your mind - BOOM - there goes your group!!!! Even with your flyer, you realize thats better than 70% of shooter/rifle combinations can do, right???
Nice shooting!! Those RPR's are sure performing....
-J.
PitBull1973
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Right Behind You
Gunneegoogoo,
I think I found one of those "nodes" that Jerry speaks of.
Yesterday I tried a few progressive loads of N550 behind a Hornady 168 gr HPBT Match bullet. The Federal cases were full length sized, trimmed and then primed with Federal lg. rifle primers. Bullets were seated to 2.808". The rifle is a Ruger Precision Rifle with a Vortex HS/LR scope.
Fired at 100 yds. (I know it's short range, but I was just working up the load)
I started at 33.4 gr, then 33.9 gr and finally 44.4gr. the node was at the 44.4 gr. mark.
I fired the first 3 and saw what looked like one big hole. I fired the forth round and proved without a doubt that I suck.
100 yards ain't enough , you need to shoot further out to really know what's happening
- Location
- Jameson, SK
Pitbull's right. For load development you do need to go 2-300 to look for the vertical spread - HOWEVER - still damn nice shooting.
PitBull1973
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Right Behind You
Yes very good shooting but again I do all my testing at 300 meters.
- Location
- On a sand bar in the Atlantic Ocean.
Yes, I understand that longer ranges are what is needed to really qualify a load. It will get there, I just ran out of time on Friday. I had only loaded 5 of each to do a quick evaluation. There are now 40 more ready to go at the first opportunity I can get. The problem is; I only have access to the (600 yd) range on certain days. I'd love nothing better than to do this all day; every day but....
Another problem is that I keep putting together precision rigs and i have a backlog of shooting to do. I guess it's not a problem but it prevents me from really focusing on one particular gun. I also shoot with a group of guys and we do "theme shoots" at lease once or twice a week, so you can only do so much of one thing at a time.
Anyways, my index finger is about 1/2 inch wide so I good with it.
Today was with new rifle that needs a scope with more X and cheek-piece for better fit. It has some real possibility with the right load... Yet one more thing to focus on...
Another problem is that I keep putting together precision rigs and i have a backlog of shooting to do. I guess it's not a problem but it prevents me from really focusing on one particular gun. I also shoot with a group of guys and we do "theme shoots" at lease once or twice a week, so you can only do so much of one thing at a time.
Anyways, my index finger is about 1/2 inch wide so I good with it.
Today was with new rifle that needs a scope with more X and cheek-piece for better fit. It has some real possibility with the right load... Yet one more thing to focus on...
- Location
- Jameson, SK
Don't feel bad....I have 4 on the go.
It would seem that you, me, and RonR like the build and planning just as much as the shooting.....
It would seem that you, me, and RonR like the build and planning just as much as the shooting.....
Planning yes, building not so much. Just have time for my son's rifle and mine. One day though.
I do have some graphs of some results between each rifle but it's not apples to apples with what's posted here or to Jerry's method. They are from 100 yards but the results over several sessions and patterns are developing to what I believe are similar to above posted regarding nodes...but again only at a 100 yards. <<< I really need to spend on some better optics, stock, bedding etc etc etc.
The wildlife federation is moving it's ranges a little further out of town and I believe that 100 200 and 300 ranges will be available. I'll compare at that time at longer distances and perhaps post the results sometime in the future.
Now back to my neck turning marathon!
Keep the results coming.
Regards
Ron
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Was out doing final testing on my Shilen barreled FTR rifle at 250yds... was gusty and windy so decided to shoot for score instead of group.
Shot 1 was high as I added some elevation in anticipation of the head winds but it was too much... dialed back down and the next 8 rds were with the same scope zero. Could have added a bit more left windage to center up the group but was mostly worried about vertical which seems to be working just fine
And here the plot for the firing order of each shot.
Hope your load tuning goes as well and you end up with small clusters with very low vertical.
Off to a palma match next weekend so we will see how this load holds up out to 1000yds in some very high winds.
Jerry
Shot 1 was high as I added some elevation in anticipation of the head winds but it was too much... dialed back down and the next 8 rds were with the same scope zero. Could have added a bit more left windage to center up the group but was mostly worried about vertical which seems to be working just fine
And here the plot for the firing order of each shot.
Hope your load tuning goes as well and you end up with small clusters with very low vertical.
Off to a palma match next weekend so we will see how this load holds up out to 1000yds in some very high winds.
Jerry
