So you see exactly the same level of accuracy shooting your 22s as your boomers, Greg?
Suppose it would follow someone could accomplish the same just launching 12 gauge slugs a lot cheaper too which is also fun
.308 or 30-06
- Thread starter bdplumbing
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Suppose it would follow someone could accomplish the same just launching 12 gauge slugs a lot cheaper too which is also fun
It does not follow for shotguns, or for platforms that not are equal. The platform and sighting system contribute to accuracy as does the quality and type of ammunition.
Given equal parameters, which I do have, then, "yes," I shoot as accurately with heavy calibers as I do with light. Eg. My .458 Lott is a Ruger M77 RSM with a 1-6X24 scope, if I shoot it against my M77 .223 with the scope dialed to 6X, I am confident the accuracy will be roughly equivalent. Further, I have two .358 Win carbines that are among my most consistently accurate rifles, with 2.5-8 & 2-7 scopes mounted I would happily bet on them against my M77 Mark II .223 or .22/250 when set at the same power out to 200 yards. The problem with these comparisons are that lighter calibers and cartridges have generally been optimized for accuracy, where with heavy cartridges there are usually other priorities.
It would be hardly fair to compare an iron sighted .500 Jeffrey double rifle loaded with 540 grain RN's to a chassis, .22 BR with 24X optic, loaded with high BC 72 grain BT's @ 200 yards... clearly those parameters are not equal.
But equalize the parameters, and recoil should not be a significant factor in achieving C-T-C accuracy or consistency.
P.S - that has just been my experience and is my opinion, YMMV and I am not "going to the matt" on the issue.
Got ya, I just figured that since accuracy with the big boomer wasn't essential, just flinging big ol bullets into the berm got someone over a fear of recoil, then it would stand to reason that firing 12 ga slugs into the berm did the same thing.
When we're talking about the rifles being optimized for accuracy etc, we're talking about shooting off the bench, or that actually providing the decisive edge when you're shooting in field conditions/from field positions?
Lets say we said "Here's 10 coke cans at 100 yards, take 5 shots from standing and 5 shots from kneeling at them" with one of your big bore scoped rifles, and then one of your 22 cals. Which one do you think would hole more cans?
Same with a bit bigger target at 200 using some field expedient support.
Would you bust as many cans as with the 223s, not counting any "optimization for accuracy"?
I think I answered that in the previous post...I would hit just as many cans with the big bores as the .22 cals, given equivalent platforms... you have to level the playing field to make any kind of reasonable conclusions on the effects of recoil on accuracy.
By "optimizing for accuracy" I am referring to design criteria of the platform and optic. The design goals for a small bore benchrest rifle are different from the design goals of a large bore double rifle.
Shotgunning actual represents a good case in point...
Nobody worries about recoil in general Shotgunning, say with skeet, trap, sporting clays or waterfowling, but take any of those shooter's and go pattern your shotgun for an afternoon, and all of a sudden they start talking about recoil... why?
When the target is moving and you don't have time to fret over things like recoil or the exact perfect mount, you are freed of the fear and anxiety related to subconscious recoil beliefs... but when the target is not moving and you are settling in to take a shot and preparing to squeeze the trigger, your mind jumps into a different channel and the fear and anxiety of the pending explosion looms up, often causing jerking, flinching and other target panic flaws which adversely effect accuracy. The same sort of thing happens with shooting rifles.
I’ve got a pile of both, which is a bit odd because I’m not real enthused by either. I use .308 a lot in my target rifles, just because of the rules. My 308 Anschutz sporter has its fair of kills on it though.
Because of culling I’ve killed more animals with the 30-06 than any other caliber. Much of that could have been done with a .308 just as well. Most hunting worldwide in general is on animals that aren’t particularly big or tough or very far away and within reason it doesn’t matter too much what you use.
When you start stretching things out, and pushing limits the 30-06 can pull ahead, especially handloaded. I’ve got one rifle that likes Superformance, which by itself qualifies as a minor miracle. I can’t say I’ve had a lot of luck with that stuff, but this one kicks 165 grainers out at 3200 fps which isn’t something a 308 is going to come within a mile of. A friend named it my 30-23; reasoning that we’ve come a long ways from 1906. It’s fun to head shoot my 600 yard IPSC targets with an ‘06 that thinks its a Magnum.
Because of culling I’ve killed more animals with the 30-06 than any other caliber. Much of that could have been done with a .308 just as well. Most hunting worldwide in general is on animals that aren’t particularly big or tough or very far away and within reason it doesn’t matter too much what you use.
When you start stretching things out, and pushing limits the 30-06 can pull ahead, especially handloaded. I’ve got one rifle that likes Superformance, which by itself qualifies as a minor miracle. I can’t say I’ve had a lot of luck with that stuff, but this one kicks 165 grainers out at 3200 fps which isn’t something a 308 is going to come within a mile of. A friend named it my 30-23; reasoning that we’ve come a long ways from 1906. It’s fun to head shoot my 600 yard IPSC targets with an ‘06 that thinks its a Magnum.
Should have read the whole thread before I posted; can't believe I missed a streak of recoil versus shooting ability.
I'll put my vote in the recoil is mostly in your head camp. As evidence for that consider how people can build up a tolerance for recoil. Nothing physical changed; nobody grew an armor plate, or developed a 3/4" callus on their shoulder, and nobody I know got their shoulder swapped out for one made of cast iron or concrete. One day the shooter just decided was no big deal anymore; which is the same as saying it was no big deal in the first place. A 308 or 30-06 can barely muster enough recoil to bounce on a sandbag; how does that turn into a near death experience?
You can calibrate your perception by shooting something that kicks significantly harder. Try something with African level recoil; something that will make many people under 200 pounds or so pop a wheelie shooting from offhand. A 458 Lott has roughly the same recoil as 4 30-06s going off at the same time, but it won't kill you. You might even find it fun, lots of people do. Once you know what won't kill you, you may find that the line of what annoys you is moved forever.
I'll put my vote in the recoil is mostly in your head camp. As evidence for that consider how people can build up a tolerance for recoil. Nothing physical changed; nobody grew an armor plate, or developed a 3/4" callus on their shoulder, and nobody I know got their shoulder swapped out for one made of cast iron or concrete. One day the shooter just decided was no big deal anymore; which is the same as saying it was no big deal in the first place. A 308 or 30-06 can barely muster enough recoil to bounce on a sandbag; how does that turn into a near death experience?
You can calibrate your perception by shooting something that kicks significantly harder. Try something with African level recoil; something that will make many people under 200 pounds or so pop a wheelie shooting from offhand. A 458 Lott has roughly the same recoil as 4 30-06s going off at the same time, but it won't kill you. You might even find it fun, lots of people do. Once you know what won't kill you, you may find that the line of what annoys you is moved forever.
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Dogleg, I agree with you completely. Recoil is mostly in the mind of the shooter. We both shoot quite a lot. I started out hating recoil, I'm pretty sure it took me a bit longer in life than many others do to learn to shoot heavier recoiling rifles. My head is a bit more dainty than some others I suppose. And some shooters never learn to tolerate recoil. I still don't like recoil, but I tolerate it OK. I believe the small but real recoil difference between a .308 and .30-06 just might be a practical difference for a beginner. Early success helping build early skills.
People asking about the best cartridge when just starting out, with deer hunting but occasional moose in mind, and who are asking about ammo cost, ammo availability, and shooting comfort are likely to be just a tiny bit more happy with the .308 vs the .30-06. Not that a difference could be measured, that's just my opinion.
I currently own and hunt with four .308 rifles and only three .30-06 rifles. I suppose that may indicate my slight bias. I usually recommend a .308 for a beginning hunter.
People asking about the best cartridge when just starting out, with deer hunting but occasional moose in mind, and who are asking about ammo cost, ammo availability, and shooting comfort are likely to be just a tiny bit more happy with the .308 vs the .30-06. Not that a difference could be measured, that's just my opinion.
I currently own and hunt with four .308 rifles and only three .30-06 rifles. I suppose that may indicate my slight bias. I usually recommend a .308 for a beginning hunter.
I’ve shot enough paper to know it doesn’t make a lick of difference to me, I’m applying all the same fundamentals regardless of caliber. I’m sure most here have shot and measured groupings a time or three as well
I actually really doubt it, at least if we are talking away from the lead sled. Would bet a lot of money that "most here" have absolutely not honestly compared their shooting abilities with big vs small.
That kind of honesty with ourselves can be difficult.
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I see no difference from any position from 22s up to my 416 or anything in between with their preferred loads except the sizes of the holes. I don’t know what to tell ya. For many it doesn’t matter, for many it does. With apples to apples setups if the fundamentals are solid I find it doesn’t matter what I shoot, callipers easily confirm that. You don’t believe most guys on a site called Canadian gun nuts haven’t had multiple rifles in a range of calibres out on the same day in the same positions and not measured their groupings at some point?
You don't think the experienced shooter's here have compared directly??? You don't think they have spent hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of rounds shooting calibers from .22 through .500 and sometimes more?
The ones who have not done so fall on the "recoil sensitive" side of the discussion... the others have already proved the point.
I thought that was a pretty retarded statement seeing where we are posting
We just jumped from "most here" to "the experienced shooters"? Bit of a shift ain't it?
I still think if they run an honest head to head comparison they'll see something different from what they say.
No one has yet proved that point. People have made claims.
I don’t think we would be kidding anyone here calling you special
We have all proved the point... you just aren't listening because you are married to your preconceived ideas... and the reason for that is that YOU are afraid of recoil. I would bet you have never shot any rifle over a .30/06 for more than a couple rounds, and it got in your head. The reason I said 200 rounds to get over the anxiety is that you have to push past the first few rounds that will likely catch you off guard with double or triple the recoil of your .308 (etc...)... shoot enough and you arrive at the point that we have been talking about... recoil sensitivity (short of physical injury) is largely mental. Those that have moved past the anxiety can shoot a .500 Jeffrey or .458 Lott as accurately as a .22 Hornet or .223.
Oh, I think claiming most people on an internet forum know exactly how well they shoot from any given position with different rifles is the short bus opinion here thank you haha.I don’t think we would be kidding anyone here calling you special
I'd also love to see something like "what size target can you reliably hit from field positions at 200 yards" tested with the forum en masse, and if you think most of em do well there, you'd have another think coming.
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