.308 or 30-06

hoytcanon said:
We have all proved the point... you just aren't listening because you are married to your preconceived ideas... and the reason for that is that YOU are afraid of recoil. I woukd bet you have never shot and rifle over a .30/06 for more than a couple rounds, and it got in your head. The reason I said 200 rounds to get over the anxiety is that you have to push past the first few rounds that will likely catch you off guard with double or triple the recoil of your .308 (etc...)... shoot enough and you arrive at the point that we have been talking about... recoil sensitivity (short of physical injury) is largely mental. Those that have moved past the anxiety can shoot a .500 Jeffrey or .458 Lott as accurately as a .22 Hornet or .223.
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And now we get into the inevitable "I bet you..." Wrong. Try again. I shoot bigger than a 30-06 often. I've owned 3-4 375 rifles in H&H and Ruger Magnum, 9.3x62s, shoot a lot of 12 gauge slugs. BTW, you never explained why shooting 12 gauge slugs is any different from shooting big game rifles when you don't even need to hit the target.

And no, you haven't proven anything at all. You've claimed something is true. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. How do we know?

I believe you think so.
 
Joel said:
And now we get into the inevitable "I bet you..." Wrong. Try again. I shoot bigger than a 30-06 often.

And no, you haven't proven anything at all. You've claimed something is true. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. How
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Joel said:
And now we get into the inevitable "I bet you..." Wrong. Try again. I shoot bigger than a 30-06 often. I've owned 3-4 375 rifles in H&H and Ruger Magnum, 9.3x62s, shoot a lot of 12 gauge slugs. BTW, you never explained why shooting 12 gauge slugs is any different from shooting big game rifles when you don't even need to hit the target.

And no, you haven't proven anything at all. You've claimed something is true. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. How do we know?

I believe you think so.
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How about you go out and prove it for yourself, load up a couple hundred rounds and borrow someone's .458 and give it a go. The people here who have done it for themselves and their hunting partners and range friends are apparently not trustworthy, so go prove us wrong.
 
hoytcanon said:
How about you go out and prove it for yourself, load up a couple hundred rounds and borrow someone's .458 and give it a go. The people here who have done it for themselves and their hunting partners and range friends are apparently not trustworthy, so go prove us wrong.
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Sure send me some guns and ammo. I'll get right to it.

12 gauge slugs are way cheaper and I already have one but for some reason you continuously refuse to explain, it apparently won't work ;)
 
Joel said:
And now we get into the inevitable "I bet you..." Wrong. Try again. I shoot bigger than a 30-06 often. I've owned 3-4 375 rifles in H&H and Ruger Magnum, 9.3x62s, shoot a lot of 12 gauge slugs. BTW, you never explained why shooting 12 gauge slugs is any different from shooting big game rifles when you don't even need to hit the target.

And no, you haven't proven anything at all. You've claimed something is true. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. How do we know?

I believe you think so.
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Well, I don't care for being called a liar much, so I will figure out the ignore function on the new website after this post.

Your shotgun comment didn't warrant a response. The reason it may not work is because it isn't a rifle, and the shooter knows it isn't a rifle when he/she is shooting it... and what is being combatted is a mental block... if you don't believe it is the same it will likely not prove effective or at least as effective when you switch back to a rifle.
 
hoytcanon said:
Well, I don't care for being called a liar much, so I will figure out the ignore function on the new website after this post.

Your shotgun comment didn't warrant a response. The reason it may not work is because it isn't a rifle, and the shooter knows it isn't a rifle when he/she is shooting it... and what is being combatted is a mental block... if you don't believe it is the same it will likely not prove effective or at least as effective when you switch back to a rifle.
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You go ahead and do whatever you wanna do, but I'll say this:

I never called you a liar, ever. I said I am sure you believe what you are saying. And I acknowledged that perhaps you really are part of a very select group of shooters. I NEVER said it is impossible that you are capable of doing just what you say. If I ever said you were intentionally misleading anyone, please quote it and I will apologize right now. Profusely.

So if I have a shotgun with rifle sights, shooting one projectile, the fact that I know it isn't a rifle will keep me from being able to tolerate recoil with rifles.

But shooting rifles and missing the target entirely will work. Somehow using all the same fundamentals with a shotgun won't but the rifle just does.

Ooohhhhkay
 
Joel said:
You go ahead and do whatever you wanna do, but I'll say this:

I never called you a liar, ever. I said I am sure you believe what you are saying. And I acknowledged that perhaps you really are part of a very select group of shooters. I NEVER said it is impossible that you are capable of doing just what you say. If I ever said you were intentionally misleading anyone, please quote it and I will apologize right now. Profusely.

So if I have a shotgun with rifle sights, shooting one projectile, the fact that I know it isn't a rifle will keep me from being able to tolerate recoil with rifles.

But shooting rifles and missing the target entirely will work. Somehow using all the same fundamentals with a shotgun won't but the rifle just does.

Ooohhhhkay
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Yup, you got it now... that is exactly right... because you are dealing with a mental issue not a mechanical issue. You don't need to.hit the target, you have to learn that recoil won't kill you and that you can absorb it without subconsciously reacting to it before the bullet leaves the barrel. Good for you... gold star.
 
hoytcanon said:
Yup, you got it now... that is exactly right... because you are dealing with a mental issue not a mechanical issue. You don't need to.hit the target, you have to learn that recoil won't kill you and that you can absorb it without subconsciously reacting to it before the bullet leaves the barrel. Good for you... gold star.
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Okay, its just magic. Holding sights on target on a shotgun until the trigger releases and the shotgun goes off, and following through, is just so different from doing the same with a rifle. And even if you hit the target, due to some kind of complete sorcery, putting slugs on target just doesn't count cause you *know* its not a rifle. Thus even though its the exact same skill you STOP doing that exact same thing, with a rifle that kicks half as much as the shotgun does.

I dunno if my disbelief suspenders stretch that far.

How bout calling you a liar, where'd I do that? Or can we agree that didn't happen?

Lots of dialogue here seems to just be conveniently ignored.
 
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Joel said:
Okay, its just magic. Holding sights on target on a shotgun until the trigger releases and the shotgun goes off, and following through, is just so different from doing the same with a rifle. And even if you hit the target, due to some kind of complete sorcery, putting slugs on target just doesn't count cause you *know* its not a rifle. Thus even though its the exact same skill you STOP doing that exact same thing, with a rifle that kicks half as much as the shotgun does.

I dunno if my disbelief suspenders stretch that far.

How bout calling you a liar, where'd I do that? Or can we agree that didn't happen?

Lots of dialogue here seems to just be conveniently ignored.
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I thought you had it... but, Nope... confused again. If we are trying to cure a mental issue, which it is (anxiety), then YOU have to believe it is what you are afraid of (a recoiling rifle), if YOU know it is not a recoiling rifle, but a shotgun, then the benefit will be limited by your own mind. You want to recreate a scenario that is as close to the thing you are anxious about, but exaggerate the trigger causing the anxiety... standard psychologica cognitive behavioral therapy... or exposure training... basically, you expose yourself to something enough times that you stop fearing it. Give it a try.
 
Didn't know you had a psych degree!

I will, actually. Seems to be that shooting is shooting, but I'm willing to give it a go and see what happens. Perhaps my just straight rational knowing that the hunting rifle will only kick half as much as the shotgun I'm using the exact same skill set with really just isn't enough. See, I would have thought that holding a long gun in the exact same fashion as I'd hold any other, alinging the sights, going through a proper trigger pull and follow through while knowing it was going to recoil much harder than my hunting rifle would work. Seeing as how its the exact same thing in every single conceivable way. But if you say the brain just doesn't equate one to the other at all, okay...Open to the idea. Think its at least something that warrants the experiment.


If I'm wrong, at least I'll shoot a 12 gauge with slugs way better than I did several hundred slugs before!


How about this "called you a liar" thing though? Why are you avoiding any and all mention of it again despite several prompts. If you won't confirm or deny me calling you a liar, will you at least go into WHY you're completely ignoring it?
 
Joel said:
Didn't know you had a psych degree!

I will, actually. Seems to be that shooting is shooting, but I'm willing to give it a go and see what happens. Perhaps my just straight rational knowing that the hunting rifle will only kick half as much as the shotgun I'm using the exact same skill set with really just isn't enough. See, I would have thought that holding a long gun in the exact same fashion as I'd hold any other, alinging the sights, going through a proper trigger pull and follow through while knowing it was going to recoil much harder than my hunting rifle would work. Seeing as how its the exact same thing in every single conceivable way. But if you say the brain just doesn't equate one to the other at all, okay...Open to the idea. Think its at least something that warrants the experiment.


If I'm wrong, at least I'll shoot a 12 gauge with slugs way better than I did several hundred slugs before!


How about this "called you a liar" thing though? Why are you avoiding any and all mention of it again despite several prompts. If you won't confirm or deny me calling you a liar, will you at least go into WHY you're completely ignoring it?
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Doubters gonna doubt... haters gonna hate.

You did not use the word "liar" you just heavily inferred it several times.

I'm done flogging this dead horse. Hope it was interesting for the casual onlookers.
 
hoytcanon said:
Doubters gonna doubt... haters gonna hate.

You did not use the word "liar" you just heavily inferred it several times.

I'm done flogging this dead horse. Hope it was interesting for the casual onlookers.
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I never inferred it. At all. Certainly not "heavily".

I was always open to the possibility that you were completely right and even said I'd happily acknowledge it if you were. I went out of my way to specify that I didn't think you would be intentionally dishonest at all. We all have opinions/notions of what we can do in a given situation that may not be accurate. If you think thats me saying you're a liar, thats a "you" thing.

If that is not true, I'm open to seeing proof. Anyone should be able to quote me on it, since I apparently did so several times.
 
I got one can shoot my 458wm as good as my 223. I know my 458wm is not a Lott but it's just a tad shorter. It's easier to get an accurate bullet in a bigger diameter because tiny flaws make up a lesser degree when big vs small diameters are concerned.
Is my 223 more comfortable to shoot off the bench. Very much so. But I've shot more sub moa groups with my 458 than any other rifle I own. The 223 takes the lead past 100 yards simply due to superior optics and much flatter trajectory

As for the op I'd prefer the 3006 over the 308 for 2 reasons. One is actually useful. The 3006 can push a heavier bullet faster and I find comfort in heavier bullets at modest speeds for hunting
The second reason is the 308 is just boring. It works ok. It's just to common. Like parking a Honda civic at a car show. No one is going to get excited about it but everyone walking by knows it gets great fuel mileage

On a side note about the 458wm. I've had complete Newby shooters fire it standing offhand and do fine and like it. Even a 103lb 6'1" female friend. On the other hand I've had friends who have been shooting their whole life get scoped and bent from the recoil because their ego gets the best of them and they don't listen. Most often scoped shooter in my experience is the guy who shoots a 308. That's just my personal experience

As for my personal 308 I'm going to try some lighter weight bullets to see if it can impress me but I have my doubts. My rifle shoots to good to rebarrel so I'll likely just keep it for my daughter
 
You”re right- it is the age old debate. You could literally spend hours on YouTube watching comparisons of both. In the field, recoil may make the decision for you. That being said, I hunt a range of large game and use a .30-06.
 
I have more experience with 308 than 30-06 however comparing to all other cartridges I have used the 308 seems the easiest one to get to shoot well out of the box. I have 5 308's at the moment which all shoot the same load... just like at least 5 more that I had sold on. There is no load development.
From a 20" barrel I get around 2600fps with loaded or factory 168 ammo with which I have taken deer out to 500m. With modern powders like RS some claim around 2650fps with 178gr ELDX which is a nice increase.
I am sure performance wise the 30-06 should be able to better this however maybe not the ease of achieving accuracy/consistency.
edi
 
EJG said:
I have more experience with 308 than 30-06 however comparing to all other cartridges I have used the 308 seems the easiest one to get to shoot well out of the box. I have 5 308's at the moment which all shoot the same load... just like at least 5 more that I had sold on. There is no load development.
From a 20" barrel I get around 2600fps with loaded or factory 168 ammo with which I have taken deer out to 500m. With modern powders like RS some claim around 2650fps with 178gr ELDX which is a nice increase.
I am sure performance wise the 30-06 should be able to better this however maybe not the ease of achieving accuracy/consistency.
edi
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Across the board I find it easier to get a .308 shooting than a 30-06 too. Its not an absolute thing, but it is a pattern. I also find it easier to get a 300 Win shooting than a 30/06, and because of its superior external ballistics its easier to hit with at distance than either of them.


Take F-Open versus FTR as an example. Its not hard to find Open guys with combos that drift half of what the 308 guys are using. That doesn’t make it twice as easy, but it does mean that any error in a wind call is twice as bad with the 308s. If it wasn’t for a separate category there wouldn’t be a 308 on the line.
 
Why is killing a deer apparently so hard to do? Use whatever you want. As a lefty I use what’s available in the platform I like. Options are limited, but it’s never kept me from killing game. Ever.
 
Another consideration is that 30-06 was America's legacy caliber, just as .303 British is here. They served well through two World Wars then got surplussed when NATO 7.62 came in. So at that point there was a big bonus of rifles and ammunition flooding the market, but once the tons of surplus ammo had been bought up you were looking at more expensive new-production ammo and they became reloader's calibers.

Meanwhile the NATO calibers of 7.62 (308), 5.56 (223), and 9mm are in production in huge volumes and the piece of that reaching the civilian market keeps bulk-ammo prices down.

So though the legacy calibers were the thing to shoot in past decades, if you're looking forward and planning to feed your rifle for a long time yet to come, then you're going to do better in .308.
 
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