308win vs 223 Fast twist, Nightforce & Sightron take a back seat to new scope!

At Nokomis, I had a chance to enjoy looking through a March 8-80. Was surprised the front obj was so "small" given the mag range but it worked.

As with all variables, the higher mag dropped optical quality but it will still good. The reticle was very nice and the spacing vs knobs are simple to use. That would be a great aid.

Was it good enough for me to buy one (and yes, I have been thinking hard about them for a while now), no.

Even at 1000yds, I found that mag over 45X just wasn't needed (I shoot a SIII10-50X60 LRIRMOA). In fact, I kept my mag mostly at 35 to 40X. No problem seeing the X ring and making very small adjustments on target. I can see and adjust equal to the scoring line thickness - not very thick and plenty enough resolution for F class.

Now here is my major difference - I WANT to see the mirage and WANT to see how that mirage affects my target image. This gives me clues on the changes happening in the air which really helped me deal with the wonky and bumpy air we faced that weekend.

As has been mentioned and I observed, the March scopes let you use much higher mag and see through the mirage. For BR, where there are likely plenty of wind aids, seeing the bullet impact so you can chase your group is a huge aid.

For F class, a great big honking spotter is put where your bullet center is so you never have to guess where your bullet landed. AND in general, the wind flags are spaced far apart and may not tell you all that you need to know. Anyone shoot at Homestead?

So I rely heavily on the mirage to give me more info.

I have yet to see a scope that betters the Sightron in this respect (I would have it on my rifle in a heartbeat). The target is still plenty clear to see and aim at but you still get all that wonderful mirage info AND that can occur at lower mag.

I shot at lower mag to ensure I could see the target numbering (frames 2 and 3 were almost touching and cross fires were real easy to do) AND watch the nearby targets.

I was saved a number of times by an errant shot on a neighbouring target giving me a big warning on an impending wind change.

THAT is way more important to me then being able to adjust my POA 1/4" at 1000yds (I can already adjust my aim 1/2", maybe a bit less).

Scope mag is a personal thing as is shooting strategy. Get the product that fits your style and how/what you compete in. Each sport will have its own special needs so fit the gear to that.

When the mirage was low, very little difference in optical qualities between the sightron vs march. when the mirage picked up, the sightron was better to use then the march.

I do not shoot with a spotting scope cause my sightron does the job for me.

YMMV.

Jerry

PS, I have seen more FOpen shooters cross fire then FTR. Likely cause FO guys are running higher mag and can't tell when they are aiming at the wrong target. A zero is very expensive.
 
of course we can start a huge debate on how to use so much mag ! is it required ? do i really need this ? Jerry brought a couples really good points here about the mirage and of course, when zoomed at 80X, the main goal is to aim precisely to the center, not to read mirage....and that's why i just bought a spotting scope on top as i just figured that mirage is critical to good F-Class shooting (i repeat that i'm a beginner in this). I'm personnaly to the point as i'm "looking " at mirage not reading it....but it will come with A LOT of practice......i mean A LOT.

I'm definitely not sure i want to play with my focus in the middle of a relay to look at mirage and then come back to focus at my target. I'm also convinced that with a really thin exit pupil, it's hard to accomplish full precision of aiming with the Sightron zoomed passed 40-45X as i shot a couple thousands rounds with that scope, including a very precise 6BR.

Do i need 80X for FTR, probably not....but it's available if required ! If i dont see nothing because there is too much mirage i can zoom back to.......8X ! For a beginner like myself, who is searching " a way to go", that scope is perfect. It's helping me define my technique. For a really good experience shooter like Jerry, for sure the SIII can do the job.

There is only one thing i dont agree with Jerry is the glass quality between those scopes. I' ve been looking trought my partner scope (SIII 10x50x60) nearly every practice to confirm "my investment" and there is way more contrast in March glass than SIII. Maybe the difference apear more at 100-200yds but....there is a good difference.

my HUMBLE opinion
 
Longshot said:
And how does the march glass compare to Schmidt+ Bender?
Click to expand...

That would be the big question. If March is priced about the same as NF then I will try one but if we are looking north of $3k then S+B is the obvious competition and I would want to know how they compare before risking the expenditure.
 
WG300 said:
of course we can start a huge debate on how to use so much mag ! is it required ? do i really need this ? Jerry brought a couples really good points here about the mirage and of course, when zoomed at 80X, the main goal is to aim precisely to the center, not to read mirage....and that's why i just bought a spotting scope on top as i just figured that mirage is critical to good F-Class shooting (i repeat that i'm a beginner in this). I'm personnaly to the point as i'm "looking " at mirage not reading it....but it will come with A LOT of practice......i mean A LOT.

I'm definitely not sure i want to play with my focus in the middle of a relay to look at mirage and then come back to focus at my target. I'm also convinced that with a really thin exit pupil, it's hard to accomplish full precision of aiming with the Sightron zoomed passed 40-45X as i shot a couple thousands rounds with that scope, including a very precise 6BR.

Do i need 80X for FTR, probably not....but it's available if required ! If i dont see nothing because there is too much mirage i can zoom back to.......8X ! For a beginner like myself, who is searching " a way to go", that scope is perfect. It's helping me define my technique. For a really good experience shooter like Jerry, for sure the SIII can do the job.

There is only one thing i dont agree with Jerry is the glass quality between those scopes. I' ve been looking trought my partner scope (SIII 10x50x60) nearly every practice to confirm "my investment" and there is way more contrast in March glass than SIII. Maybe the difference apear more at 100-200yds but....there is a good difference.

my HUMBLE opinion
Click to expand...

There is no one right answer on mag vs distance vs shooting style. Everyone at Nokomis had different ways of getting their bullet into the center. As long as you can figured out the winds, it's all good.

I decided against the spotting scope idea a while back. With some fast switching conditions, by the time you get back onto your scope, the winds have changed enough to cause a miss.

Stopped dialing around too.

Scored for a few really good shooters and they got caught the same way. They had enough experience to know what went wrong but a novice would be pretty messed up when their wind call is one way, and the bullet shows up completely backwards cause they got caught in a switch or let off.

They made the right call BUT the condition changed before they could pull the trigger. It happens all too often.

Dont worry about playing with the side focus on the March. They are superb scopes and there is no issue dialing wherever you want for best view. Give it a try and see how it works for you. Back off a bit to see the mirage (hopefully), get a read (yeah, we do some SWAG too), dial back if desired, send it. The whole process should only take a second or two.

Flags wouldn't be fast enough to show it but mirage usually can.

March scopes are not cheap and they are over $3K type products. S&B vs March, no clue but both are at the top of this heap. The only thing that might be a neg for S&B is the reverse rotation for turrets.

If you have a scope that is backwards to NA convention, that can really screw you up when you dial the "wrong" way. Big reason I don't own a S&B.

Some old habits die hard...

Jerry

PS as for clarity of the SIII's I have on my rifles, on a no mirage day, their image at 1000yds and beyond is superb. When I can resolve wild grass at 1000yds or the slots of an electrical outlet at 1130yds, I really can't see the need for any more resolution. BUT the sightron will pick up mirage sooner then a march. For me, this is a great thing. But some do find that distracting.
 
for the price: a March 8x80x56 with 3/32 dot fine cross hair is around 3730.00$cad in Quebec (with our taxes rates).

Jerry, cant agree more on this one !

Can you explain me something. In a team match, i was learning from the master D'Amour, looking at is impact Vs mirage with correction he was making. My focus was at around 600-700m. When my time arrived to shoot, even if my corrections on scope were fine, i missed the target. Once i corrected the focus, i went back in !!!!!???? How come a paralaxe error can cause that much of an error ?

PS. there is a guy on this network called Arrowhead. This guy is making a tape with your moa correction on it that you stick on top of your turrets. By doing this, it's way more easy to see "where you are" on windage and elevation. You can have then made the look you want for basically all scope. My friends got is copy and is turrets, on is SIII, are the same as on my March ! If i would knew that 1 years ago, i dont think i would have bought those March.

thanks
 
Mystic Precision said:
So I rely heavily on the mirage to give me more info.

I have yet to see a scope that betters the Sightron in this respect (I would have it on my rifle in a heartbeat).
Jerry
Click to expand...

Come on dude. at least tell people you are a Sightron scope dealer when you make a statement like that.

As to the March it is FAR superior in Glass then any other offering currently out there. I have looked through no fewer then 6 March scope including WG300's 5x50 10x60 8x80 and the new 5x40 FFP
The glass is easily better then my nightforce and the sightron. remember objective size doesn't equal clarity 56mm for mightforce and March 60mm for sightron

As for using the 8x80 yes it is usable and in some cases more effective then something with half the power. if you want a larger field of view get the 43mm disk insert.

What i have noticed is that my nightforce at 42 shows all the mirage to judge the wind conditions. The upside to the march is that i was able to turn the scopes power up to 50+ and still see the same mirage condition while having a finer aiming point. I have also noted when the mirage is really thick and people are turning there scopes down to the 20 range the March is still good in the 30's.

more moa per turn on windage and elevation then my nightforce equal to the sigthron. better glass
costs allot I would have one today if it wan't twice as expensive as my nightforce BR model. and still might
 
WG300 said:
for the price: a March 8x80x56 with 3/32 dot fine cross hair is around 3730.00$cad in Quebec (with our taxes rates).

Jerry, cant agree more on this one !

Can you explain me something. In a team match, i was learning from the master D'Amour, looking at is impact Vs mirage with correction he was making. My focus was at around 600-700m. When my time arrived to shoot, even if my corrections on scope were fine, i missed the target. Once i corrected the focus, i went back in !!!!!???? How come a paralaxe error can cause that much of an error ?

PS. there is a guy on this network called Arrowhead. This guy is making a tape with your moa correction on it that you stick on top of your turrets. By doing this, it's way more easy to see "where you are" on windage and elevation. You can have then made the look you want for basically all scope. My friends got is copy and is turrets, on is SIII, are the same as on my March ! If i would knew that 1 years ago, i dont think i would have bought those March.

thanks
Click to expand...

I will state the obvious - a scope is an optical device and we all see thing differently. So you just need to learn what is the best set up for you.

I dial back for the mirage and back infocus to shoot. I don't shoot when out of focus cause the distortion is greatest (I am looking at the mirage as much as possible) and that could lead to "aiming" at the wrong target.

Since you have such wonderful help, see if you can do some side by side shooting and just follow his lead. He calls the dope, you tag along but play with your scope to find what is the best way for you to see what he sees.

Understanding the mirage is a big learning curve and I am no where near learnt all I want or need. BUT when you get direct feedback from an experienced shooter, you will learn more in 10 shots guided then hundreds groping around in the dark.

I got some superb help by a great wind reader in SK. In half a dozen shots, I clicked on to the very different way of understanding big air. Went from WTF, to dialing in and putting them in the 10 ring.

Like the Rosetta stone, once someone gives you a guide to read off, it all starts to make a lot more sense.

When I practise, I try anything and everything. Why not, who cares what the score is BUT if I can pick up 1 good idea or technique, wow, that really ups my game.

Play around with your MARCH. It is a very good scope no doubt. Try monkeying with the eye objective AND side focus. If they react the same as the Sightrons, you may find an even better view by experimenting.

Can't hurt....

Jerry
 
Trevor60 said:
Come on dude. at least tell people you are a Sightron scope dealer when you make a statement like that.

As to the March it is FAR superior in Glass then any other offering currently out there. I have looked through no fewer then 6 March scope including WG300's 5x50 10x60 8x80 and the new 5x40 FFP
The glass is easily better then my nightforce and the sightron. remember objective size doesn't equal clarity 56mm for mightforce and March 60mm for sightron

As for using the 8x80 yes it is usable and in some cases more effective then something with half the power. if you want a larger field of view get the 43mm disk insert.

What i have noticed is that my nightforce at 42 shows all the mirage to judge the wind conditions. The upside to the march is that i was able to turn the scopes power up to 50+ and still see the same mirage condition while having a finer aiming point. I have also noted when the mirage is really thick and people are turning there scopes down to the 20 range the March is still good in the 30's.

more moa per turn on windage and elevation then my nightforce equal to the sigthron. better glass
costs allot I would have one today if it wan't twice as expensive as my nightforce BR model. and still might
Click to expand...

Given that my commercial interests are in EVERY post I made, full disclosure is given.

BUT I stand by what I said. In "clean" air, I can't tell a difference in resolution. AND as I said before, the Sightron will pick up mirage faster which is exactly what you experienced.

Choose the optics that work for your style of shooting. No right answer.

As I said, for my style of shooting, higher then 45X really does nothing for me whether I can see mirage or not.

I hope to someday spend some time with a 50X S&B. If the optics there gives me more info, it will sit on my rifle. But the knobs would have to rotate the "right' way.

Jerry
 
Trevor60 said:
As to the March it is FAR superior in Glass then any other offering currently out there.
Click to expand...

Have you had chance to compare to the S+B 12-50x56 ? I have 4 NF's and a Sightron and have commented previously that there is little to choose between those two brands but my S+B is superior to both and I am keenly interested to know if the March is on a par with S+B.
 
better contrast with the March than the Bender. I would not change a bender for a better glass but for more zoom.
 
Tomochan,heads up I wouldn't change either unless the March absolutely had what s&b did not, like a lot more zoom. For my eyes s&b glass is as good as it gets. Where I test glass is in brush and s&b gives me depth perception all others don't. This feature is eye specific as some guys will find other brands give them better depth perception than s&b. This little subtle difference makes a huge difference when needing to judge distance differentials quickly and without external aids.
 
Last edited:
Tomochan said:
Have you had chance to compare to the S+B 12-50x56 ? I have 4 NF's and a Sightron and have commented previously that there is little to choose between those two brands but my S+B is superior to both and I am keenly interested to know if the March is on a par with S+B.
Click to expand...

Will you be at Chilliwack next weekend? Hoping to make it down for the team practise.

Would love to look through that S&B.

dizzy, you are bang on. We all see differently and one type of lens and coatings may not work for you.

A friend traded off his NF's for Sightron cause the focus was "better". He now shoots a MARCH. right, wrong - of course not.

Get the gear that fits YOU

The problem is being able to try some of this top tier stuff out and deciding for yourself.

Jerry
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom