my thoughts as well - 35 Whelen is a 35/06 , its a heavy hitter & gives more options than a 338/06
338-06
- Thread starter pitpenz83
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my thoughts as well - 35 Whelen is a 35/06 , its a heavy hitter & gives more options than a 338/06
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- New Scotland
For a fellow bluenoser I could help you out with handloading if you want. Peter at Hirsch should have Norma brass or, if you sweet talk Why Not and bring a couple of bags of brass I can turn your 30-06 brass into 366 Wagner in short order. Actually, I think I resized all my Garand brass to 9.3 because I was bored. Might have a coffee can of it out in the shop. You bring the Varget and the 250 Accubonds and we can brew some deer slayers.
I think the big question here is what is tolerable for recoil to the OP.
Is a 30-06 reasonable? You can do a lot with that and 180gr pills. Very capable, versatile round.
Alternatively if that's a bit much, 308 is very capable too.
The 338/35cal options are expensive in multiple ways. Ammo costs are high if you don't reload, not very common to find either. The rifles in such chambers are also uncommon and more expensive than a half decent 30cal.
Is a 30-06 reasonable? You can do a lot with that and 180gr pills. Very capable, versatile round.
Alternatively if that's a bit much, 308 is very capable too.
The 338/35cal options are expensive in multiple ways. Ammo costs are high if you don't reload, not very common to find either. The rifles in such chambers are also uncommon and more expensive than a half decent 30cal.
I am getting really tired of people, who, barely able to hide the gloat, say someone is recoil shy, so he should get so and so.
Friend, every shooter is recoil shy! Meaning, they may be able to do good with a heavy recoiling rifle, but they would do much better if they used a much lighter recoiling rifle.
On the old Rifleman's Rodeo shooting competitions, once very popular in Alberta and BC and maybe still going in some places, the rules were that any rifle which was legal for hunting big game in Alberta, which is a calibre of 6mm or larger, was legal for this competition. The targets appeared at random, from 100 to 300 yards and required quite fast shooting.
I started out shooting a 270, but soon learned that I was handicapping myself with the fairly heavy recoil. I then had a custom built 243 made for me.
There was a family from Calgary, the dad, wife and three daughters who always came to every competition, no matter where they were held and always won far more trophies than anyone else at the shoots. The dad could be called a professional shooter and he taught his family very well. Each member of the family had their own rifle, in 6BR calibre, a very short 6mm cartridge with virtually no recoil.
One time this dad said to me that if I had a lighter recoiling rifle I would win more trophies! I asked him if he thought my 243 had too much recoil and he said, "Without doubt it has too much recoil for the best of shooting."
When the 308 Winchester appeared in the shooting world it quickly took over as a top calibre for its class in bench rest shooting, pushing the 30-06 well away. The shooting press was full of admiration for the great accuracy of the 308 Winchester. Then a major competitor in prescission shooting chimed in and stated that the 308 was no more accurate than the 30-06, it was just the lighter recoil that made it easier to shoot well with.
Friend, every shooter is recoil shy! Meaning, they may be able to do good with a heavy recoiling rifle, but they would do much better if they used a much lighter recoiling rifle.
On the old Rifleman's Rodeo shooting competitions, once very popular in Alberta and BC and maybe still going in some places, the rules were that any rifle which was legal for hunting big game in Alberta, which is a calibre of 6mm or larger, was legal for this competition. The targets appeared at random, from 100 to 300 yards and required quite fast shooting.
I started out shooting a 270, but soon learned that I was handicapping myself with the fairly heavy recoil. I then had a custom built 243 made for me.
There was a family from Calgary, the dad, wife and three daughters who always came to every competition, no matter where they were held and always won far more trophies than anyone else at the shoots. The dad could be called a professional shooter and he taught his family very well. Each member of the family had their own rifle, in 6BR calibre, a very short 6mm cartridge with virtually no recoil.
One time this dad said to me that if I had a lighter recoiling rifle I would win more trophies! I asked him if he thought my 243 had too much recoil and he said, "Without doubt it has too much recoil for the best of shooting."
When the 308 Winchester appeared in the shooting world it quickly took over as a top calibre for its class in bench rest shooting, pushing the 30-06 well away. The shooting press was full of admiration for the great accuracy of the 308 Winchester. Then a major competitor in prescission shooting chimed in and stated that the 308 was no more accurate than the 30-06, it was just the lighter recoil that made it easier to shoot well with.
I want to clarify about the recoil. I started out with a ruger 77 in 7mm rem mag. That was one of the worst experiences I've had and everyone that shot the gun. That thing kicked like a mule. I had several friends that shot it once and that was it. Needless to say it's been long gone down the road. I'd like a bigger gun than the 7-08 that doesn't have to kick like a mule. My 7-08 I can shoot all day with a t shirt. Also I'm out in southern Alberta so I have everything to shoot within hours of home and plan to do some traveling in the near future.
As always Bruce, sage advice. However when one wishes to chase certain game around in certain country inhabited by certain other critters, I feel a larger bore and greater energy on target may well be prudent. I agree that recoil is always less objectionable when there is less of it. But the greatest problem when hunting is that game seldom presents itself at optimum angles, allowing a nice broadside shot where a 7-08 is as good as anything for such a shot. I try to use a rifle, cartridge and bullet that allows me make a lethal shot regardless of the angle and shot presented. There is also the preparedness of possibly needing a follow up shot, I doesn't happen often but when it does, your chances of it being a "standing broadside" are virtually zero. I make mistakes as do we all and I believe in being prepared for just such a scenario. The other consideration of potentially hunting in grizzly country always has an influence on my choice of cartridges with which I hunt. I am not the least bit afraid of grizzlies but I do have a healthy respect for them and I have seen the abuse they can take when aroused and their adrenaline is up. This not the time when I would wish to be standing there with a 243 or 6BR.
Bruce, regarding your point, we also found this to be true when shooting silhouette. The lowest recoiling rifle of sufficient energy to take rams quickly became the best scores out there. Some guys even went so far as to use cartridges that were only 30-50% reliable on rams, saying they would make up any lost rams by being able to hit more chickens, pigs and turkeys due to the greatly reduced recoil. But I'm sure you agree that there is a difference between shooting paper and steel, than wild animals and all the variables that can be thrown into a hunting situation.
OP were I you and not wishing to handload my choice would be simple and clear.........358 Win or 35 Whelen, both are outstanding killers and my son has been shooting his 358 Win since he was 7 years old, and shooting it well. So one must assume the recoil to be minimal or at least very easily manageable. My preference in this class is the 350 RM but unless one handloads, again it is a poor choice as factory ammo is virtually unobtainable.
For those of you recommending the '06, keep in mind you are not increasing frontal diameter very much and as one increases bullet weight the recoil goes up linear for a given velocity. I find the son's 358 Win far more pleasant to shoot with 225 grn bullets, even loaded to max, than a 30-06 loaded to the nuts with 200 or 220 gn bullets, and in my opinion is a better killer within 200 mtrs than the '06 too. However YMMV...........
Bruce, regarding your point, we also found this to be true when shooting silhouette. The lowest recoiling rifle of sufficient energy to take rams quickly became the best scores out there. Some guys even went so far as to use cartridges that were only 30-50% reliable on rams, saying they would make up any lost rams by being able to hit more chickens, pigs and turkeys due to the greatly reduced recoil. But I'm sure you agree that there is a difference between shooting paper and steel, than wild animals and all the variables that can be thrown into a hunting situation.
OP were I you and not wishing to handload my choice would be simple and clear.........358 Win or 35 Whelen, both are outstanding killers and my son has been shooting his 358 Win since he was 7 years old, and shooting it well. So one must assume the recoil to be minimal or at least very easily manageable. My preference in this class is the 350 RM but unless one handloads, again it is a poor choice as factory ammo is virtually unobtainable.
For those of you recommending the '06, keep in mind you are not increasing frontal diameter very much and as one increases bullet weight the recoil goes up linear for a given velocity. I find the son's 358 Win far more pleasant to shoot with 225 grn bullets, even loaded to max, than a 30-06 loaded to the nuts with 200 or 220 gn bullets, and in my opinion is a better killer within 200 mtrs than the '06 too. However YMMV...........
If a 7mm rem mag was to much recoil, then you are not gonna like anything based on the 30-06. The whole point of the 7mm rem mag was to provide a super flat trajectory without going above 30-06 recoil levels.
Looks like your only option will be a 308-based something-or-other.
You should try to find someone with a 308 and give it a try. This is looking more and more like a very good choice, and you won't have issues finding ammo like you might with a 338 federal or 358 win.
Looks like your only option will be a 308-based something-or-other.
You should try to find someone with a 308 and give it a try. This is looking more and more like a very good choice, and you won't have issues finding ammo like you might with a 338 federal or 358 win.
The .338/06 has a nice ring to it for sure. The cartridge has a balanced look to it, more so then the Whelan and possibly the 30/06.
I too was lured by it's mystic many moons ago, a witches brew so to speak, but didn't give in to it.
If you handload for sure and are someone who just likes abby normal stuff, I'd say go for it. The argument is much like the merits of the Big Bore 358Win to the .308Win, so really it makes a squirrel gun into a Dangerous game rifle, don't think so.
From a practical, field capability reality standpoint, what can it do the 30-06 won't do really, except not shoot as flat maybe?
And then,..if we're talking the 30'06,... then why not the .308Win? You see where I'm going with this right...........(.284/308Win) Well maybe a .308 at minimum.......
yearrrpp!
160gr premium in the 708 in the hands of a stalker hunter, would have moose straps sizzling in camp, I'd have thought.
(listen to me now, in the 708 club and all, whod a thunk it)
WL
I think my best piece of advice I can give you is buy a caliber that you will be happy with, if it hurts a bit then put a limbsaver recoil pad on it. Those work wonders to say the least. I put one on my ruger 77 tang in 338 win mag. Helped with recoil a ton.
Good day to you! We seem to have the same tastes. My very first rifle was a 788 in 7mm-08, which I still have and use every year. I got lucky this year and got drawn for moose, so I had a good excuse to buy another gun! I ended up with a semi-custom .338-06 on a 700 action with a Ron Smith 24" barrel and brake, Timney trigger and all bedded and whatnot. Topped it with a 3-9x40 VX-R. I haven't had enough time to work up some really good loads yet, but on my first outing with it I had a 7 shot group measure 1.01" with plain old Speer 225gr SPBT. Yesterday I was trying out some AccuBond/H4350 and Partition/H414 combinations. Both averaged just a hair over 1" with four shot groups, with each combination having one group opened up to 1.8" due to me, no other reason, and it was quite breezy. I haven't tried the heavier match bullets yet, but I have a 1:9" gain-twist with this barrel, so for giggles I'll pick a nice winter day and see what they can do!
As to recoil. Another thing to consider is the total weight of the firearm. With some 225gr bullets on top of a hot load, there will be a bit of recoil to be dealt with. However, a 7mm-08 in a rifle that weighs 6 pounds with optics will have more kick than my heavy-ish (~10lbs) .338-06, I'd assume. Because you said you aren't reloading and don't plan to, this leads me to believe you won't be using this rifle for anything other than hunting, and the occasional shot at the range before hunting season. While I'd rather lug a light rifle around than a heavy one, in the end you are the one hoofing it around so you have to decide if an extra few pounds will be acceptable or not. For me it was, as was the muzzlebrake. First rifle I've owned with one so it is my only experience with them, but so far I really don't mind it. Doesn't seem much louder to me, but I don't have anything to compare it to, and with those bullets in the 200-225gr range between the brake, the weight of the rifle, and a really nice buttpad it doesn't seem to kick any more than my 7mm-08, no fooling! The 788 has a short 18.5" barrel and a buttpad that is old and getting very stiff, so the recoil isn't tamed as much and the muzzleblast is closer to your face, so I guess that's why I don't notice much difference in recoil/blast when I pull the triggers on those two firearms.
So long story short...I'd say go for it, you won't be disappointed with the caliber's performance. Just don't buy a featherweight rifle!
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
We shooters are all effected by recoil to various extents, while some find the sensation exhilarating, others find it only objectionable. Clearly the cartridge we choose should be balanced toward the game we hunt. It isn't prudent or legal to hunt big game with a .22 rimfire, so if we want to pursue that activity, we must choose a cartridge that has more recoil than a .22. The mantra has long been, "Use enough Gun!" though perhaps it properly should have read, "Use JUST enough gun!" That said, I believe the minimalist approach to big game cartridges is deplorable. There is nothing morally superior to hunting a moose or elk with a 6mm when a gently recoiling 6.5 with 50 or 60 grs more bullet weight is available. The current trend is towards light rifles, and if your rifle weighs 5 pounds, it doesn't need to be chambered for a big case .375 to get your attention, a hot loaded .30/06 will rattle your cage enthusiastically. If the country you hunt is steep or otherwise difficult, a light rifle makes sense, but it will kick harder than a heavier rifle chambered for the same cartridge. The big game hunter doesn't need to lie behind his rifle for 100 rounds, so "carry a lot - shoot a little" might well describe his rifle, and while he can limit his exposure to heavy recoil, its prudent that he be able to put 3 rounds on target from a solid, supported field position. You are ready to hunt with your hard kicker when you can shoot it as well, for 3 rounds, as you can one of your small bores.
An adult male who is physically fit enough to play contact sports can normally learn to tolerate recoil from a mid bore rifle, but he has to want to. The first consideration is the rifle. It must weigh enough for cartridge it's chambered for. It should balance slightly towards the muzzle so that it handles quickly and points well. It must fit the shooter, and the butt must be fitted with a good quality recoil pad. The rifle's scope, if so equipped, must have sufficient eye relief so there is little chance of being struck by the ocular, regardless of the shooting position, and when hunting we can find ourselves shooting from some interesting positions, that aren't usually observed on the rifle range. Low power scopes usually have a more generous eye relief than high powered scopes. The rifle's recoil velocity is much slower than the bullet's muzzle velocity, but you still won't be able to outrun the ocular that races towards your face, so mount it well forward, it probably should not extend behind a bolt action's cocking piece, or at worse, behind the rear bow of the trigger guard. If the rifle is particularly obnoxious to shoot, it might be advisable to begin shooting it with reduced loads, normally a handloading proposition. Once you've established a comfort level with the reduced load, gradually, and over time, incrementally increase the charge as your comfort level allows. Finally the shooter must protect himself from the sound of the muzzle blast, by whatever means he finds effective.
Next in importance comes shooting technique. Since off-hand provides the shooter with the best recoil control, and the least amount of felt recoil, it makes little sense to begin shooting a hard kicker from slung up prone, if you have trepidation about what might happen when you press that trigger. Begin shooting off-hand, and chances are that if the butt properly located in the shoulder pocket, the elbow lowered to close and protect the pocket, with your weight shifted over the toe of your forward foot, when the rifle bucks you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. From this point forward, you can work towards increasing your tolerance to recoil, by shooting from lower supported positions, thus increasing the felt recoil. Your exposure to heavy recoil should be frequent, but limited to short shot strings, with plenty of time between each string. The rifle should never be allowed to hurt you, but if it does, stop shooting immediately. If you try to tough your way through it, sure as hell, a flinch will be the result. Not only might you may never learn to shoot that rifle well, it might adversely affect your shooting with any rifle. If the rifle hurts you, something is wrong and has to change, so you have to isolate what the problem is, and fix it before you can progress. I noticed that the middle knuckle of my shooting hand would be painfully wrapped by the trigger guard of my .375 Ultra; the stock I chose had a pistol grip that crowded the trigger guard. I was faced with the cost and inconvenience of finding a replacement to my otherwise excellent, high quality, expensive stock, with one having a more open grip design. Otherwise I had to find a way to mitigate the problem, and fortunately the solution was an inexpensive piece of nylon that was easily fitted to the rear of the trigger guard, which deflected my knuckle during the recoil impulse.
I think a medium bore built on the .30/06 case is a fine choice for big game larger than deer. The recoil will be strong compared to a small bore, but it will be manageable in an appropriate rifle that can still be conveniently carried. Keep in mind the notion that these things are designed to be used by normal people, and that they are not beyond your ability. Good luck with your project.
An adult male who is physically fit enough to play contact sports can normally learn to tolerate recoil from a mid bore rifle, but he has to want to. The first consideration is the rifle. It must weigh enough for cartridge it's chambered for. It should balance slightly towards the muzzle so that it handles quickly and points well. It must fit the shooter, and the butt must be fitted with a good quality recoil pad. The rifle's scope, if so equipped, must have sufficient eye relief so there is little chance of being struck by the ocular, regardless of the shooting position, and when hunting we can find ourselves shooting from some interesting positions, that aren't usually observed on the rifle range. Low power scopes usually have a more generous eye relief than high powered scopes. The rifle's recoil velocity is much slower than the bullet's muzzle velocity, but you still won't be able to outrun the ocular that races towards your face, so mount it well forward, it probably should not extend behind a bolt action's cocking piece, or at worse, behind the rear bow of the trigger guard. If the rifle is particularly obnoxious to shoot, it might be advisable to begin shooting it with reduced loads, normally a handloading proposition. Once you've established a comfort level with the reduced load, gradually, and over time, incrementally increase the charge as your comfort level allows. Finally the shooter must protect himself from the sound of the muzzle blast, by whatever means he finds effective.
Next in importance comes shooting technique. Since off-hand provides the shooter with the best recoil control, and the least amount of felt recoil, it makes little sense to begin shooting a hard kicker from slung up prone, if you have trepidation about what might happen when you press that trigger. Begin shooting off-hand, and chances are that if the butt properly located in the shoulder pocket, the elbow lowered to close and protect the pocket, with your weight shifted over the toe of your forward foot, when the rifle bucks you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. From this point forward, you can work towards increasing your tolerance to recoil, by shooting from lower supported positions, thus increasing the felt recoil. Your exposure to heavy recoil should be frequent, but limited to short shot strings, with plenty of time between each string. The rifle should never be allowed to hurt you, but if it does, stop shooting immediately. If you try to tough your way through it, sure as hell, a flinch will be the result. Not only might you may never learn to shoot that rifle well, it might adversely affect your shooting with any rifle. If the rifle hurts you, something is wrong and has to change, so you have to isolate what the problem is, and fix it before you can progress. I noticed that the middle knuckle of my shooting hand would be painfully wrapped by the trigger guard of my .375 Ultra; the stock I chose had a pistol grip that crowded the trigger guard. I was faced with the cost and inconvenience of finding a replacement to my otherwise excellent, high quality, expensive stock, with one having a more open grip design. Otherwise I had to find a way to mitigate the problem, and fortunately the solution was an inexpensive piece of nylon that was easily fitted to the rear of the trigger guard, which deflected my knuckle during the recoil impulse.
I think a medium bore built on the .30/06 case is a fine choice for big game larger than deer. The recoil will be strong compared to a small bore, but it will be manageable in an appropriate rifle that can still be conveniently carried. Keep in mind the notion that these things are designed to be used by normal people, and that they are not beyond your ability. Good luck with your project.
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This. The caliber is only part of the recoil equation.
that Nosler 338-06 load is not exported out of the USA, since it is part of their 'Custom' line. Only Trophy Grade ammo is exported
338-06 is a great cartridge but it sounds like you need something else. Probably a 35 Whelen although the factory ammo is pretty watered down or loaded with light for caliber bullet weights.
338-06 is a great cartridge but it sounds like you need something else. Probably a 35 Whelen although the factory ammo is pretty watered down or loaded with light for caliber bullet weights.
LOL, If it was a box stock M77 with that hockey puck of a "recoil" pad, I know exactly what you mean. I'm not shy of recoil and hunt in grizz country with a 338 WM. On the targets, I can shoot at least a 1/2 box of 225gr before the recoil starts affecting my shot. That M77 7mmRM, I'm good till about the 6th shot (160gr) with that hockey puck pad.
I fixed that problem with a grind to fit limbsaver pad. The 7 has a sharp recoil and the limbsaver has tamed it big time. It's now one of my favorite rifles for reachin out there on mulies and such
Prarie Plinker beat me to it... You need a heavier rifle in that cal. Featherweight rifle with Tupperware stock will hurt. Google some recoil tables and you will find that the 338-06 has twice the recoil as the 7MM-08. Get a heavier rifle and a scope with lots of eye relief and you can get used to it. Invest in a lead sled for sighting in and you are good to go with what you choose. As previous posters mentioned, a .30-06 may be just what's needed.
