338 Federal Vs 358 Winchester

exactly! another great cartridge to pick from, for the hunter who doesn't need or want to absorb the 40 ft lbs of recoil of a light 300 or 338...but wants a handy, light rifle to cover any hunting opportunity inside 300 yards - enter the mild mannered, effective 338F


PS check the topic of this thread ;)
 
I agree to a point martin but again it comes down more to bullet selection than actual frontal are when comparing bullets that aren't too far apart in diameter. As some bullets will expand far more than others, the frontal area of a smaller calibre bullet can actually eclipse that of a larger caliber bullet just as a quality bullet can overcome the accepted thoughts on SD.

I disagree that frontal area plays a significant role in killing too. I'd say there are a dozen factors that enter the equation before frontal area ever comes into play. Remember, we are talking the same weight and speed bullet here so energy should be very similar. I fail to see how a 150 grain 30 cal would kill any better than a 150 grain 7mm delivered at the same speed.

A lot of theories like SD and frontal area can be traced back to the days of non-jacketed bullets and really don't apply much today.

This elk agrees......
TJBull07.jpg

TJ
I didn't realize we had a celebrity in our midst...:D

I have come to the conclusion based on far less experience than you have that a .308 calibre bullet driven similar speeds is a far more dramatic killer than a .277 bullet. I hear from guys that regularly hunt with 45-70's and muzzleloaders find the same thing with really large bullets provided bullet construction is appropriate to both the velocity and game being shot.

I also agree with you about the last comment about SD and frontal area being an issue for non-jacketed bullets and even more traditional jacketed ones being less relevant today. I am a great lover of Barnes bullets when driven hard on fairly large game, but have stopped using them in my pet whitetail only rifle, a 308 Kimber. In the Kimber, which I carry for whitetail only hunting I shoot 150 gr ballistic tips.
 
I likely hunt with a muzzleloader as much as anyone and I'm not sure that frontal area really plays a roll. I think it's more the energy that a big bullet propelled at moderate speed delivers. That's that initial "whack" factor but I'm not convinced that it's the diameter of the bullet but rather the initial energy dump of combined weight and speed. I'm not saying this initial energy dump is any more lethal but there's no question it is dramatic at the time of impact. After that, you still need to poke holes in something that will let air or blood out or completely distrupt the nervous system.

I think too much is put into SD and frontal area and energy when the fact is, that you need to majorly disrupt the breathing, nervous or circulatory system to ensure that an animal hits the ground quickly. In the case of this elk, there was little whack factor but a whole lot of air being let out. He went 40 yards.

I don't buy into this whole larger wound channel thing either but that's for another day. Most of these discussions are for for bored internet nerds.....damn I'm bored today :D
 
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The 338F gives a bit more reach, more current rifle options, and with excellent factory ammo selection. Compare this to the 358 and it becomes very obvious why it's a better choice. :wave:

More current rifle options and better factory ammo is not the point. The point is that with proper loading the .358 is practically the same as the .338F, except that the latter is "new". People get all excited about new stuff, even if it doesn't offer any advantage over old stuff. The reason the .358 isn't available in new rifles and better factory loads is because, unfairly IMO, it flopped. So now neck it down, chamber it in new rifles and it is something great?

Anyways, I'm not dissing anyone who likes the federal or wants/owns one. I'm just saying it doesn't offer anything new, and it is not really an improvement over the .358. They offer basically the same performance to the same range (when equally loaded).
 
More current rifle options and better factory ammo is not the point. The point is that with proper loading the .358 is practically the same as the .338F, except that the latter is "new"

it IS the point. walk into a gun shop and ask what they have in 358 Winchester rifles and most of the time you'd get a blank stare or get laughed at. Same as if you asked for ammo for a 358. Unless you're interested in scrounging gun shows across the country for used stuff...finding 358 rifles & especially ammo will probably not be very successful. Ruger chambers the 358 in 3 M77 models, and Browning chambers the BLR in it. THose were all added in the past 2-3 years too, before that the 358 was literally done for new rifles.

like Sheephunter said, there isn't really anything wrong with NEW cartridges...:)...performance wise, the 338F is very similar to the 358. Federal saw a niche there, to offer a NEW version of the 358 Win that is more attractive to the guy who wants a more versatile flat shooting rifle. Could you imagine if Federal introduced four new factory loads for the 358? The average guy wouldnt even notice. Introducted a NEW cartridge and it stands a chance at catching on
 
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I likely hunt with a muzzleloader as much as anyone and I'm not sure that frontal area really plays a roll. I think it's more the energy that a big bullet propelled at moderate speed delivers. That's that initial "whack" factor but I'm not convinced that it's the diameter of the bullet but rather the initial energy dump of combined weight and speed. I'm not saying this initial energy dump is any more lethal but there's no question it is dramatic at the time of impact. After that, you still need to poke holes in something that will let air or blood out or completely distrupt the nervous system.

I think too much is put into SD and frontal area and energy when the fact is, that you need to majorly disrupt the breathing, nervous or circulatory system to ensure that an animal hits the ground quickly. In the case of this elk, there was little whack factor but a whole lot of air being let out. He went 40 yards.

I don't buy into this whole larger wound channel thing either but that's for another day. Most of these discussions are for for bored internet nerds.....damn I'm bored today :D

I must be bored today as well, it now sounds like we agree. A big critter like an elk or a moose requires more energy combined with good penetration to reach the vital organs and provide the needed disruption. It's the WHACK factor that I am talking about, deer and other animals that size are just really easy to severly damage inside and kill and bigger bullets appropriate to the 8-12 inches of penetration needed seem to do it quicker for me. The deer i've tracked the longest were all shot with a 270 by my son, could be shot placement isn't quite as good as whenI shoot them, but I always seem to get tired first tracking them and then dragging them back out of the woods when he shoots them. Now he's 19 and he shoots a 30-06 with the same skills and they seem to drop much quicker.
 
On the fast controlled expansion thing vs the slow bigger bullet. When I was in Africa I shot a 168 gr TSX at everything form my 300 win mag at 3200 fps muzzles velocity. The kudu, gemsbok, and wildebeest went down right now, the blesbok and springbok went a distance before dropping. This kind of cemented my feeling that on deer sized game bullets that open faster are more dramatic killers, but on bigger stuff with thicker hides the TSX is just the ticket.
 
On the fast controlled expansion thing vs the slow bigger bullet. When I was in Africa I shot a 168 gr TSX at everything form my 300 win mag at 3200 fps muzzles velocity. The kudu, gemsbok, and wildebeest went down right now, the blesbok and springbok went a distance before dropping. This kind of cemented my feeling that on deer sized game bullets that open faster are more dramatic killers, but on bigger stuff with thicker hides the TSX is just the ticket.

Sounds like we do agree but I still think it has very little to do with bullet diameter and everything to do with how fast the energy dumps and the amount of energy dumped.
 
As I stated in a previous thread, having had a 338-08 several years ago and used it with good success, I wanted to try a 358 Win simply not because of its versatility but because it is capable of hurling much larger bullets than the 338 and it does that very well.
I also wanted to compare it to my M.71 Win 348, which again is a strictly non-versatile rifle with very few bullet options.
As for 338s I have a 338 Win Mag, a 338-06 and a 338 RCM and I like all of them but someday the herd will have to be culled and time will tell which will stay.
 
As for 338s I have a 338 Win Mag, a 338-06 and a 338 RCM and I like all of them but someday the herd will have to be culled and time will tell which will stay.[/QUOTE]

Oops....forgot my favourite 338, my Lapua AI....1/4 MOA all day long...:D
 
I'm going to through my observations into this discussion. I find it interesting that writers dis-obey a rule I had pounded into me years ago: Never bite the hand that feeds. I've read quite a bit on the .338 Federal. I've discussed it's merits with other shooters, and introduced it to many who asked "What the Hell is a .338 Federal?"

I've read alot of comparisons lately. Heck, for fun I've started a few threads on the topics myself just for kicks. But I do not get paid for it, rather I do it for fun. Many of the things I've read take a new cartridge, (.338 Fed) and compare it against the old stand by's (.30-06) Then they draw the conclusion "Why do we need this when we already have so many other choices?" Well for one it's different. I like the fact that not everyone is going to shoot a .338 Fed where as I bet $100 that if I bump into a dozen hunters this Fall, half of them will be carrying an '06. Another point is it's a kick in the pant's to modern thinking. Yay, let's discuss the .300 WSM. :rolleyes: Afterwards we can talk about how soon it will be obsolete as deer are becoming ever more bullet proof. In the same issue, there is an excellent aritcle by Charles Petty titled "What's changed?" In it, he talks about how 100 years ago, in spite of the fact that hunters had cartridges like the .30-06 available, a rifle chambered in the .25-20 was capable of killing a deer. Now we all know that it is scientifically impossible to kill a deer with such a cartridge today, so we need at least a .300 magnum somthing to do it. Sorry, I don't buy into such nonsense. I like the idea that this little cartridge, while not new, nor a magnum will be able to perform on anything I may have the desire to hunt in the future.

Now that the writers like to compare this new cartridge to yesterday's cartridges, what happens tommorow? Granted this particular article is not bad, in fact Mr. Barnsness almost praises it, however another article from not long ago from him basically states, buy a .30-06 instead. The same can be said about other works. I suppose it's alot like others writing about how this or that cartridge sucks, so lets scrap it. Nonsense to stir the pot and sell books. The problem here is too many shooters take what these 'profesionals' say to heart. "Well if Captain Barscraigspomer said a .30-06 will out perform it, why would I buy it?" The cartridge goes the way of the dodo, money invested into adveritising it is lost due to free adveritising for an already established cartridge, rifles and accesories don't sell and we lose a very good thing.

I for one like this cartridge. I have gotten extremely good accuracy out of mine, and am going to try these 165 X bullets. If I can get them to fly straight, I'll have the option of a very flat shooting rifle without magnum stamped on it's barrel.

And to answer "Why" That's simple, "Just because."
 
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I for one like this cartridge. I have gotten extremely good accuracy out of mine, and am going to try these 165 X bullets. If I can get them to fly straight, I'll have the option of a very flat shooting rifle without magnum stamped on it's barrel.

And I ask again....how does that differ from the .30-06? No magnum stamped there.

I'm not pro or anti .338 Fed but it isn't the second coming and it doesn't do a damn thing that a dozen other cartridges don't already do. I appreciate the importance of new cartridges to keep the industry vibrant and applaud Federal for bringing it out but I just get tired of people trying to set it apart as something special or revolutionary.

I bought a .30TC this year that's yet another ballistic copycat to the .30-06. It's nothing more but it's new.....

It just gets to a point where the pointless rationalizing for buying these new cartridges gets ridiculous. I buy a new truck cause they're shiny......same reason I bought the 30TC.
 
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There isn't a single cartridge on the market that does what a dozen other cartridges don't do either. I'm simply tired of life revolving around the .30-06. Yes it's a good cartridge, but good Lord there's more to life than that.

What will the .338 Federal do that a .30-06 can't? It can shoot a .338 diameter bullet at reasonable velocity and the '06 cannot offer that. Does it matter with good .30 caliber bullets? Probably not, but the same can be said when one asks why shoot a .256 Mannlicher? Or a 7x57? Or a dozen other cartridges. Personal preference, and that's somthing no matter how popular a writer may be cannot dictate. :)
 
It just gets to a point where the pointless rationalizing for buying these new cartridges gets ridiculous

then why are you ragging on certain cartridges if you do realize they all will lead to the same end result in the field? your purchase of the 30TC makes me smile...TFF
 
then why are you ragging on certain cartridges if you do realize they all will lead to the same end result in the field? your purchase of the 30TC makes me smile...TFF

I've never ragged on a cartridge in my life Tod....I love all things that go bang....I just get tired of people that can't see them for what they are! My .30TC purchace should make you smile....nothing more than a magpie picking up a shiny object!
 
can ya blame them?


how much $ has Browning & Winchester made since they introduced the WSM? I'm sure it was a good business decision, even though it pissed off all those guys who own 300 Holland & Holland Magnum pre-64 m70s with steel tube 4x Weaver scopes. :)
 
As far as the 338 Fed shooting flatter than the 358 Win, that is true only when comparing factory ammo. The whole point of the article was to handload the 358!

I have loaded for a shot a number of 358 Wins over the past thirty years, and seen several tons of big game harvested with them. Load a 250 gr spitzer to 2400 fps, or a 225 BT to 2550 and you will be amazed just how far a 358 will reach. What will really amaze you, is how well the little 35 puts big game down. :D

Ted
 
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