338 Lapua Optics Question

propliner said:
You should choose your rail for the distance you shoot often. I don't want to be looking at targets through the edge of my lenses at 200yds because I want to shoot to 1500 yards occasionally.
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I made an entirely different post here, but decided nothing would be resolved, so instead I will commence your education.

Let's say you have a scope with 100moa of elevation adjustment.

You put said scope on a rifle with a flat rail, as in 0moa. Then you zero the scope at 100m by firing groups and adjusting the scope until you are zeroed.

You will find that the scope elevation adjustment is now at about the 50moa mark(plus or minus errors in the mounting, rings, etc).

This means that you only have 50 moa of elevation left on the turret. This might get you to about 1000m with your .338 (number pulled out of my butt cause I'm too lazy to look it up).

If you want to shoot further, you need to tilt the front of the scope down, You do this by putting on a new rail, such as a 20moa rail.

Now, you can rezero at 100m, and you will have 70 moa to dial up for distance shooting, maybe even out to 1500m (number, butt).

But, you have still left 30 moa of the potential elevation travel on the table. And there is no way to use it.

Except, you can tilt the scope even more. So, you go out and get yourself a 45moa rail.

You can still zero your scope at 100m, but now you have 95moa of usable elevation adjustment. So now you might be able to shoot 2000m (more butt numbers).

Congratulations ! Now you can use the full capability of your scope, from 100m to wherever.

Now, for your homework assignment, what is the best rail for a scope with 60moa of elevation adjustment?
 
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c3pppo said:
I'm not quite sure how to put this politely.

You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

You don't ever look through the edge of your lense. You adjust the elevation turret on your scope to be appropriate to the distance that you are shooting. If you have 100 moa elevation available on your scope, and you only use a 20 moa rail, then you are giving up a potential 30 moa of adjustment that you can never use. So, instead of being able to shoot 2000m you may only be able to shoot 1500m. This in no way effects your ability to shoot even at 100m with the reticle centered on the target.

You do NOT EVER have to look through the edge of your lense.
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You might not think you're ever looking through the edge of a lens, but with vertical reticle adjustment comes internal lens adjustment. There are between six and 11 lenses in a scope. Are you saying that the reticle is the only piece that moves from a central position within the scope?
 
c3pppo said:
I made an entirely different post here, but decided nothing would be resolved, so instead I will commence your education.

Let's say you have a scope with 100moa of elevation adjustment.

You put said scope on a rifle with a flat rail, as in 0moa. Then you zero the scope at 100m by firing groups and adjusting the scope until you are zeroed.

You will find that the scope elevation adjustment is now at about the 50moa mark(plus or minus errors in the mounting, rings, etc).

This means that you only have 50 moa of elevation left on the turret. This might get you to about 1000m with your .338 (number pulled out of my butt cause I'm too lazy to look it up).

If you want to shoot further, you need to tilt the front of the scope down, You do this by putting on a new rail, such as a 20moa rail.

Now, you can rezero at 100m, and you will have 70 moa to dial up for distance shooting, maybe even out to 1500m (number, butt).

But, you have still left 30 moa of the potential elevation travel on the table. And there is no way to use it.

Except, you can tilt the scope even more. So, you go out and get yourself a 45moa rail.

You can still zero your scope at 100m, but now you have 95moa of usable elevation adjustment. So now you might be able to shoot 2000m (more butt numbers).

Congratulations ! Now you can use the full capability of your scope, from 100m to wherever.

Now, for your homework assignment, what is the best rail for a scope with 60moa of elevation adjustment?
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I fully understand augmenting tilt to maximize the full adjustment available within the scope. What I'm saying is that with the turret cranked all the way one way that you are changing the angle of the erector tube and are now transmitting light through the further edges of the erector lenses. Unless these lenses are ground to absolute perfection, your image quality may suffer while using these extreme adjustments. Look at Jerry's review of the Vortex scope on his website.

I'd rather be looking through the best part of ALL the lenses- the centre- for most of the shooting I'm doing.

And I really do appreciate the "education".
 
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propliner said:
I fully understand augmenting tilt to maximize the full adjustment available within the scope. What I'm saying is that with the turret cranked all the way one way that you are changing the angle of the erector tube and are now transmitting light through the further edges of the erector lenses. Unless these lenses are ground to absolute perfection, your image quality may suffer while using these extreme adjustments. Look at Jerry's review of the Vortex scope on his website.

I'd rather be looking through the best part of ALL the lenses- the centre- for most of the shooting I'm doing.

And I really do appreciate the "education".
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I think you are overthinking this . Typically a 338Lapua will have 20 to 27 MOA slope , and with the S&B 5-25 DT the go to mount is 45 MOA

Look at what Accuracy International recommends for mounts for Lapua

Useless trivia , but S&B PMIIs are factory adjusted off center since they expect you to put it on a canted base anyways .

I have lots of scopes mounted on 20MOA , 28 MOA and one with 45MOA and , with zeros from 100 to 200 yards and IMO the image quality is not suffering for erector not being in physical center

My NSX was on Lapua and worked awesome , now it is on 308 . Lapua was 25 MOA and 308 has 20 MOA and in both cases I did not notice any image quality suffering at 200 yard zero

I think its best for you to get a chance to peek through the scopes you are looking at on canted base and make the call yourself

Having said that, if you don't think you will spend most of the time within couple hundred hards then sure get a 0 MOA base, but I can't see the downside of having at least 20MOA

To answer your question regarding magnification, for punching paper and gongs can't go wrong with the 25X range on a Lapua

I find though, when I use my Lapua for hunting , I am never over 15X .
 
I'm using both a Premier 3-15 and a Tangent Theta 5-25 at the moment and will say without hesitation that you'll want the higher magnification scope for your .338 for long-range targets. As the saying goes, you can't hit what you can't see.

I do believe that even more than magnification, glass quality is paramount. Larger tube and objective lens sizes will enhance your success even further through optimal light transmission, light gathering, exit pupil size and wider range of adjustability.

Everything adds up, (including weight).
 
TRG-42 said:
I think you are overthinking this . Typically a 338Lapua will have 20 to 27 MOA slope , and with the S&B 5-25 DT the go to mount is 45 MOA

Look at what Accuracy International recommends for mounts for Lapua

Useless trivia , but S&B PMIIs are factory adjusted off center since they expect you to put it on a canted base anyways .

I have lots of scopes mounted on 20MOA , 28 MOA and one with 45MOA and , with zeros from 100 to 200 yards and IMO the image quality is not suffering for erector not being in physical center

My NSX was on Lapua and worked awesome , now it is on 308 . Lapua was 25 MOA and 308 has 20 MOA and in both cases I did not notice any image quality suffering at 200 yard zero

I think its best for you to get a chance to peek through the scopes you are looking at on canted base and make the call yourself

Having said that, if you don't think you will spend most of the time within couple hundred hards then sure get a 0 MOA base, but I can't see the downside of having at least 20MOA

To answer your question regarding magnification, for punching paper and gongs can't go wrong with the 25X range on a Lapua

I find though, when I use my Lapua for hunting , I am never over 15X .
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I agree with what you're saying. I have a 45moa rail on my long-distance rig and it centres the scope's vertical adjustment well at ranges well over 1000yds. The whole point of my statement is that it isn't optimal to sight at the edge of a scope's elevation adjustment, and that the correct rail cant for the distance range you shoot most is in your best interest.

I merely pointed out what can happen when riding the outer boundaries of adjustment, as Jerry found out with the not-so-perfect $3500 Vortex Razors.

Overthinking or not, a little information is usually interesting, if not helpful.
 
Don't cheap out on a scope, set yourself up to go to at least 1500 yards and you'll never regret it. There's not a whole lot of things I find more satisfying than pulling the trigger, counting to 3 and hearing "ping". If your just buying a Lapua for the "look what I got" factor and only plan on shooting a few hundred yards id suggest something a little smaller and cheaper to shoot, but then again a Volvo will take you from point A to point B just the same as a Ferrari and if I had the money I'd be driving the Ferrari.
 
propliner said:
I agree with what you're saying. I have a 45moa rail on my long-distance rig and it centres the scope's vertical adjustment well at ranges well over 1000yds. The whole point of my statement is that it isn't optimal to sight at the edge of a scope's elevation adjustment, and that the correct rail cant for the distance range you shoot most is in your best interest.

I merely pointed out what can happen when riding the outer boundaries of adjustment, as Jerry found out with the not-so-perfect $3500 Vortex Razors.

Overthinking or not, a little information is usually interesting, if not helpful.
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The issues with glass quality at the extremes of scope travel is a very common and overlooked issue when shooters decide on a LR optic. Unfortunately, too many scope at all price range cut corners here as they do not expect their customers to ever use the scope to its fullest extent... either that or there is some real issues with the engineering.

With top tier scopes like S&B, TT and Sightron, the scope are useable through the range of travel so you get what you pay for. Even many NF scopes have excellent glass but you should check just to make sure nothing is amiss at the extremes IF you plan to dial that far.

So the idea of shimming a scope as indicated by c3PPPO is workable (although you have to check on the rifle cause changes aren't always linear) and something those that do ELR shooting do all the time. It is some scopes that will limit your success in this regard either with their optics and/or mechanicals.

Check before you buy.... if at all possible.

Jerry
 
I purchased the scope that's in Mystic's signature for my Lapua, the Razor HD gen 2 in 4.5-27x56. It replaced an Elite 6500 4.5-30x50 that I had on my 110BA that I decided to upgrade from when I upgraded the rifle. I wanted FFP and with a fair bit of discourse exchange between Patrice at CADEX and myself we arrived at the Vortex as the best choice based on his recommendations and CADEX's use of the optic.
 
Mystic Precision said:
With top tier scopes like S&B, TT and Sightron, the scope are useable through the range of travel so you get what you pay for. Even many NF scopes have excellent glass but you should check just to make sure nothing is amiss at the extremes IF you plan to dial that far.
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Jerry, you are the only one that includes Sightron in the same sentence as Schmidt Bender, Tangent Theta or even Nightforce for that matter. Your observations regarding image degradation during your review of the Vortex Razor II lead me to assume you aren't as knowledgeable about "top tier" optics as you (and others) would like to believe. I recall you like to use terms like wonky when describing the quality of image from Swarovski products. I believe you also said there was likely something wrong with that scope as well.

I own, have owned or used all of the above optics. I own a Vortex 4.5-27 and have compared it directly to my S&B 5-25 PMII, Steiner 5-25 Military, etc. I can tell you that S&B's show noticeable shading of the upper and lower quadrants when at the limits of elevation travel. Same as the "defective" Vortex you describe. Many long travel scopes that are designed to make available every bit of useable travel possible show this. Your coveted SVSS likely does not because even though it has a 34mm tube it has an un-impressive 20.4mil of useable elevation. My 30mm tube 3.5-15 Nightforce F1 utterly embarrasses the SVSS with its 30mil of elevation. The Vortex has 33mil available. Wouldn't it stand to reason that if you are using all available travel within the tube that image/field of view will be affected at the extremities of travel? Seems like an un-biased review would take this into consideration and a reviewer of "top tier" optics would know as much.

How many of the scopes you "review" do you actually own and use. I likely know the answer to this...
The Sightrons are fine scopes for the money. They are not in the same league optically or mechanically as the scopes you are directly comparing them to. Your suggestion that Sightron scopes show the mirage which is beneficial to the shooter as it provides information to call wind better is a Salesman's spin on the fact they are muddy and indistinct in challenging conditions. I would take a clearer target image any day and then dial back the Side focus to check mirage between me and the target if necessary.

I was a Vortex nay-sayer for years. Honestly, I still don't care for the majority of their product line but I will say without bias that the Gen II Razors hold their own against brands that cost significantly more. I have been happily impressed by this optic as have those who have had a chance to use it. Sadly with the CAD/USD exchange they are no longer the bargain that they used to be and one can buy an S&B 5-25 for similar money.
 
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Sorry, your S&B has image loss at the extent of travel. The ones I have looked through over the years didn't seem to have any issues. Maybe yours needs to have a tune up???

And as I have said numerous times, S&B still offers my fave glass for LR seeing. The TT might just change my opinion but would need alot more side by side time to decide.

Are there any high mag scope of 50X or higher with more elevation/windage travel? And how many let the shooter utilitise their entire operating range?

For this much money, wouldn't I want to be able to use the full range of performance the scope is speced for?

Given your comment, I can only assume that your Razor also degrades in image at the full range of travel?

Buy and use whatever makes you happy. Accept the performance as you see fit. We all have varying priorities and what we consider acceptable. I voice an opinion that anyone can verify for themself against their goals and objectives.

If the Razors I have reviewed are not typical of the breed, excellent. Get them fixed and move on (as I have clearly indicated in my review). If they are similar to others, the consumer will have to decide what they can and cannot accept and spend their money accordingly.

I really don't think anyone in LR shooting would have much success given the drop in optics of the Razors I reviewed.... and that drop started happening about 1/2 way through the elevation travel.

Your money... your choice.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
Sorry, your S&B has image loss at the extent of travel. The ones I have looked through over the years didn't seem to have any issues. Maybe yours needs to have a tune up???
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Don't be sorry, the 5-25's all do this. At least the 4 I own do as do my shooting partners. But maybe we got a bad batch that need tuning up.
 
Mystic Precision said:
Given your comment, I can only assume that your Razor also degrades in image at the full range of travel?

Buy and use whatever makes you happy. Accept the performance as you see fit. We all have varying priorities and what we consider acceptable. I voice an opinion that anyone can verify for themself against their goals and objectives.

If the Razors I have reviewed are not typical of the breed, excellent. Get them fixed and move on (as I have clearly indicated in my review). If they are similar to others, the consumer will have to decide what they can and cannot accept and spend their money accordingly.

I really don't think anyone in LR shooting would have much success given the drop in optics of the Razors I reviewed.... and that drop started happening about 1/2 way through the elevation travel.

Your money... your choice.

Jerry
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Jerry:

I went and read a pile of other reviews last night after reading yours and couldn't find another one that mentions the issue you point out. Which ties into your 2nd point about nobody in LR shooting having much success. CADEX uses this scope on their demo rifle for exactly that purpose (as per my discussion with Patrice and why I bought this scope). Also, it is used by the majority of the guys in the PRS series that shoot out to 1200 yards.

Based on that I must assume that your experience is atypical and that there should be a discussion going on between you and Vortex regarding this IMHO.
 
Since you read my review, you know how positive I felt about the Razor. Out of the box, very impressive... just really heavy :)

If the samples I tried were "off", I am sure Vortex will fix. One was a customer scope.. went back to dealer.

Another was in a dealers display so ....????

Test what you have... use what you like.

No brand is immune to QC oops along the way. Assume you have checked your scope through its entire travel? Remember to use both elevation and windage to push into the corners of the scope. If you are happy with the performance, AWESOME.

For 1200yds with common chamberings and bullets used in PRS, that is not a lot of elevation travel.

Enjoy...

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
Since you read my review, you know how positive I felt about the Razor. Out of the box, very impressive... just really heavy :)

If the samples I tried were "off", I am sure Vortex will fix. One was a customer scope.. went back to dealer.

Another was in a dealers display so ....????

Test what you have... use what you like.

No brand is immune to QC oops along the way. Assume you have checked your scope through its entire travel? Remember to use both elevation and windage to push into the corners of the scope. If you are happy with the performance, AWESOME.

For 1200yds with common chamberings and bullets used in PRS, that is not a lot of elevation travel.

Enjoy...

Jerry
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I haven't checked it at all other than looking through it. I have another two months before my rifle shows up.
 
I've noticed some shading on my TT when maxed out as well. It's on a 22lr til Thursday (picking up my DT then), so with a 50m zero flat rail I have only 12.7 mrad left. Shooting out to 300 yards required 13 mrad. So 12.5 on dial and .5 on reticle. When maxed out I was noticing shadowing on the top and bottom and getting a good picture was much more difficult at than 100(+2.2) or 200 M (+6.5?). Maybe the angle I had to hold the rifle had something to do with it. I didn't really think anything of it til, I read Marcoman's post and I remembered it. I highly doubt I'll ever be maxing out my elevation while it's sitting on my 308, as I doubt it'll be effective. Maybe once I get a 338 conversion, til then I'm very satisfied.
 
bsand said:
I've noticed some shading on my TT when maxed out as well. It's on a 22lr til Thursday (picking up my DT then), so with a 50m zero flat rail I have only 12.7 mrad left. Shooting out to 300 yards required 13 mrad. So 12.5 on dial and .5 on reticle. When maxed out I was noticing shadowing on the top and bottom and getting a good picture was much more difficult at than 100(+2.2) or 200 M (+6.5?). Maybe the angle I had to hold the rifle had something to do with it. I didn't really think anything of it til, I read Marcoman's post and I remembered it. I highly doubt I'll ever be maxing out my elevation while it's sitting on my 308, as I doubt it'll be effective. Maybe once I get a 338 conversion, til then I'm very satisfied.
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If you are mounting on your DTA and will have a 338 later in get yourself a 40-45 MOA mount as you will need it to get full range out of your scope....and who gives a care about effectiveness on a 308 yes you can take it to a mile and you will need all your elevation to get there don't limit yourself of your learning ability based on effectiveness....leave some room to grow into your equipment as you gain knowledge you don't want to have to end up buying another mount later on as you have surpassed the capability of it, and with the multi caliber options of the DTA you won't be disappointed in that decision. Sphur makes a great mount made for monolithic rails like the DTA might have to call him to find out what one to get but he is a great guy to deal with, also Desert Tech makes a nice 40moa mount as well.
 
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