338 Win Mag vs 375 H&H

[Boomer]

I read an article by a PH that said a 9.3x62 with good solids is enough for a body shot on an elephant!

No argument, but if you can afford an elephant hunt you will probably have more than one rifle on your safari, and in such circumstances one of those rifles would probably be a big bore.

I see the 9.3's and the .375's in this context - a medium on large dangerous African game will work, just like a .30-06 will work on Alaskan coastal grizzlies, but like the '06 on big bears, there are more suitable rounds available. Where the mediums shine is if you can only take one rifle to Africa. Similarly, if you went to Alaska after moose and sheep with just your '06, it would work in a pinch on a big bear. The 9.3's and .375's work well on plains game, and in a pinch will work on large dangerous stuff.

 

[Sasquatch]

Boomer.......I think that about nails it on the head.

 

[1899]

Here are some quotes from the article:

I suspect that the reason many new hunters buy cannons is that they fail to realise just how easy it is to kill even the toughest game with a well-placed bullet. This would imply that the ‘ideal’ dangerous game rifle for a citizen hunter is either a .375 H&H or a 9.3 x 62. My personal choice is the 9.3 x 62. The 286 grain Woodleigh solids will exit on a buffalo from any angle including a Free State (Texas) heart shot. They will comfortably break the shoulder of an elephant and still reach the vitals and will exit on all head shots. The premium soft points available, particularly some excellent flat-pointed ones produced by Ken Stewart, are more than adequate for lion or an initial shot on buffalo. In short, the 9.3 will cleanly kill any animal, and do so with surprisingly mild recoil in an 8lb rifle.

but he qualifies this with:

In comparing the 9.3 to a .375 H&H, I’ve personally never noticed any difference where good quality solids are used, since bullets from both whistle straight through an elephant or buffalo making approximately the same sized hole. The only difference I can think of is that the .375 exits 200fps faster than the 9.3 and so has more energy to expand on the environment (and do so whilst producing more recoil and considerably more muzzle blast). Both have enough horsepower to turn a charging elephant with a headshot, but both will fail miserably if the elephant is on top of you and you have to shoot upwards through the jaw or into the chest. Such an upward raking shot is surprisingly common in jesse especially when an elephant other than the one being hunted decides to join the fray. In all the sitreps I have been able to look up where a hunter has been surprised by an elephant in thick bush, the 11 cases where the hunter has been armed with a .375 he has been either injured or killed. As the rifles become more powerful, the odds improve remarkably. A .470 (or .465, 476 etc.) gives the hunter better than 50/50 odds of escaping unscathed (eight records: one killed, two injured). With buffalo it’s a similar story. A .375 solid on a frontal chest shot will seldom stop a charge dead. Both barrels from a .500 are virtually guaranteed to.

So how do you keep from getting turned into a mushy red spot?

Therefore only fire the first shot when you are absolutely sure of a (quickly) fatal hit. This means that first of all you have to know exactly where to aim, then you have to get close enough to be 100% sure of putting your bullet within 2" of where you were aiming and do so in the face of “buck fever”, nervousness, sweaty hands from the heat etc. If your rifle produces so much recoil that you haven’t practised sufficiently with it to have supreme confidence in your shooting ability with that rifle, you have added another variable that is virtually impossible to overcome.

and a final bit of advice:

The first thing to remember is that big game hunting is a sport. Like mountaineering or Formula 1 racing you can get killed or injured if you make a mistake. If there is no danger, then the activity is not a true sport but simply a game. The statistics show that big game hunting is a sport, so you must accept the risks. These risks are minimal if a few basic procedures are followed. For any citizen hunter out after dangerous game, there are three basic requirements: 1) Never hunt without a partner (even if you have an awful lot of experience); 2) Don’t put yourself into a position where you can be ambushed. Remember that on one’s own hunt, when you don’t have some git with you who insists on putting you in an awkward spot, you don’t have to venture into potentially dangerous thickets; and 3) Do not get charged.

 

[Boomer]

1899 -
I would of bought much of what was written, but for the comment about the .500 stopping a buffalo charge with a chest shot. Now I don't have a whole pile of buffalo experience behind me, but Mark Sullivan does, and he claims that once and only once he tried to stop a buffalo charge with a chest shot from his .600 Nitro - 900gr bullet at 2000 FPS - and the bull didn't even react! Then things got exciting! In a charge breaking big bones or a CNS shot is the only way to stop a charge.

Obviously a hunter is far better off with a small rifle he can manage than a large one he cannot. It takes experience and desire to master powerful rifles, but these things are designed to be used by normal people. In addition to that I would say that often you are not in control of whether you will be charged or not.

 

[1899]

I have no experience on African game, so the only info I get is from reading and extrapolating (which is poor way to go) from my experiences on North American and European game. MarK Sullivan seems to be a bit of a showman, so I kind of think what he says should be taken with a grain of salt.

He also did say that the prof. hunter must buy and practice with a large rifle, as that is his job. He said the PH must be physically fit enough to lug a 12lb rifle all day. However, most of the article was written with the "citizen" hunter in mind. The one who will maybe shoot dangerous game once every few years.

Boomer, you can fill us in with first hand experience when you get back from your hunt!

In addition to that I would say that often you are not in control of whether you will be charged or not.

This is true, but I think the point he was making is that a PH can get into situations because of pushy clients. A citizen hunter does not have those pressures, and using common sense will put the odds in your favour.

 

[Boomer]

Boomer, you can fill us in with first hand experience when you get back from your hunt!
QUOTE]

17 weeks and 2 days - but who's counting

 

[Gatehouse]

The 9.3's and .375's work well on plains game, and in a pinch will work on large dangerous stuff.

Saeed form AR has killed about 100 buffalo, a couple of elephant, lion etc with a .375 300gr X bullet, ...

I doubt you could convince him that the 375's are only good to use in a pinch.

 

[Gibbs505]

Saeed form AR has killed about 100 buffalo, a couple of elephant, lion etc with a .375 300gr X bullet, ...

I doubt you could convince him that the 375's are only good to use in a pinch.

[/IMG]

Right now, which would perfer, my 505 Gibbs, a 338 or a 375 H&H!

 

[Boomer]

Saeed form AR has killed about 100 buffalo, a couple of elephant, lion etc with a .375 300gr X bullet, ...

I doubt you could convince him that the 375's are only good to use in a pinch.

Ya see the size of that guy - he only weigh's as much as one of .505's cartridges.

Everyone has their favorite smoke-stick. At one time bear hunters scorned the .375 as an elephant gun - and many still prefer an '06 to anything else. I had my .375 built as my bear gun. I was very distressed at the cost of .416 Rigby brass, so went with the .375 Ultra which gives me .375 H&H 26" barrel velocities from a 21" barrel. Had I known I was going to go to Tanzania when I bought that rifle it would of become a .460 G&A. Still, a .375 for a one rifle hunt in Africa is a good choice. Yes it's the legal minimum in most countries, but it is in no way a marginal round for a client. Now that I have a supply of 380 gr Rhino bullets my .375 is not that short of the Rigby.

 

[Sasquatch]

Dang.............I'm thinking that I would prefer the iron sights at that range.....get the big picture.

I shot two cape buffalo with iron sights in thick brush at about 40 yards. I would not have wanted my scope on the rifle either time.

There are times for a scope but that photo is not one of them.

 

[1899]

Dang.............I'm thinking that I would prefer the iron sights at that range.....get the big picture.

I shot two cape buffalo with iron sights in thick brush at about 40 yards. I would not have wanted my scope on the rifle either time.

There are times for a scope but that photo is not one of them.

You read my mind! I was also thinking it may be a photoshop. Or not?

 

[DarrylDB]

Dang.............I'm thinking that I would prefer the iron sights at that range.....get the big picture.

I shot two cape buffalo with iron sights in thick brush at about 40 yards. I would not have wanted my scope on the rifle either time.

There are times for a scope but that photo is not one of them.

Yeah, but if i were in his shoes, I'd be shooting my rifle like a shotgun. Point and shoot, not much margin for error at a few feet.

Though I've never shot an elephant or cape buffalo.
I dont think I could shoot an elephant, but I'd love to get a cape, and a hippo for the skulls. Not so matching end tables

 

[Gibbs505]

You read my mind! I was also thinking it may be a photoshop. Or not?

Sorry. no photoshop! As I understand from the replies on the website that I got the photo from, they both walked away! Yep no fire exchanged and yes I think that I would have perfered iron sights myself! However you go with what you have at a time like that!

 

[Gatehouse]

[/IMG]

Right now, which would perfer, my 505 Gibbs, a 338 or a 375 H&H!

I'd prefer a very reliable gun with proper bullets, over a howitzer of unknown capabilities.. Preferably a rifle that had proven itself on game.

 

[John Y Cannuck]

Where's my 30-30?

 

[Howard]

Where's my 30-30?

Too much gun. A 22 is all you really need (laughing)...

 

[Boomer]

The only shot that would work in that picture is a brain shot. To find the brain on an elephant, imagine a broom stick passes through his ears, now your bullet has to break the broom stick to find the brain. A .375 solid simply out penetrates most others. In this situation that would be good - unless you shot a tad high or a tad low. Would the .375 be able to stun the elephant giving the hunter a second shot - I don't know, but given this situation - I think bigger is better. A telephoto lens compresses the distance between objects in a picture, but it looks to me like the rifle is aimed low given the apparent angle.

Before everyone points out that ole Karamojo Bell killed a substantial number of his 5000 elephants with small bore rifles like the .256 Mannlicher, the 7X57, and a .318 of some description, I would like to point out, that when possible, Bell would position himself behind the elephant and shoot high on the back of the head, behind the ear where the skull is very thin, and where a charge would carry the animal further away - rather than closer.

 

[Tumbleweed]

Yes..................sadly most shooters now a days would end up trampled into a gooey mess if they used a 7x57 on elephant. The average hunter can't shoot worth s#*t. Many get so excited that they miss a whole damn moose at 50 yards......never mind the brain of an elephant (about the size of a loaf of bread) and that's if they can actually remember where it is from different angles.

Probably why most PH's still get their clients to pump a couple rounds into the heart/lungs and avoid the often screwed up brain shot. Bell was an exceptional individual with superb shooting skills and steely nerves. Most of the hunters I have met are crapping themselves following up a wounded blackie never mind staring down 7 tons of bull elephant.

You're 100% right, and good on ya for posting it. Little bitty groups on a paper target do not necessarily make a man good in the bush.

 

[Gibbs505]

I'd prefer a very reliable gun with proper bullets, over a howitzer of unknown capabilities.. Preferably a rifle that had proven itself on game.

Better have a solid bullet up the spout!

 

[Gatehouse]

Better have a solid bullet up the spout!

Proper bullets is what I said...And in this case, the proper bullet would be a solid.