35 whelen VS 35 whelen imp.

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dumprat

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What is the point behind the improved? I have been told the straight sided case can cause feeding and headspace problems. I am building a new rifle and want a 35 but reliability is key in anything I own. I may have acess to an 30-06 imp. reamer with an pilot change I can have a 35 impoved, but is it better or just a headache.
 
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Considering that the .30-06 case has, and is, being used as a .375 and .411, I can't see why you would have to concern yourself with headspace problems. For the most part, in my very humble opinion, feeding issues are not the cartridge's fault. They are due to problems with the rifle.
 
I recall an article by John Barsness int Rifle or Handloader Magazine in which he stated that the .35 Whelen was one of the more useless adaptions of the .35 Whelen. This was because the increase in powder capacity in the improved version was minimal compared to the standard version.

There is a theory that says velocity increases at about 1/4 the rate of increase in powder capacity. So, for example, if the improved version will hold 4% more powder, velocity will increase by 1% - everything else been equal(pressure, etc)

In my .35 Whelen with s 23" barrel, I get around 2700 fps with 225 gr bullets and 2500-2550 fps with 250's. These velocities are with less than book max loads.
 
The point behind the improved is more case capacity - more powder and velocity. I have rifles chambered for both and find a modest increase in velocity is available with the AI version. I personally have never accepted the stingy Barsness theory mentioned above - particularly with a 24" barrel. But it's true that improving the 35Whelen case does not gain much more case capacity. I have the 40degree one and forget the difference I weighed years ago but I think I remember it was around 70grs. water to 74grs. water to the case mouth.

Whether or not it is "worth the trouble" is a personal call. For most I'm guessing not. But some enjoy fire forming and tailoring top level loads with more powder and recoil - others don't. It may be obvious but to use standard loads in a AI chamber will net worse than standard performance. You have to load up to equal pressure and have a long enough barrel to burn the extra powder too.

Make sure if you decide on a AI that the smith headspaces it properly so as to be a slight crush fit with FACTORY 35Whelen rounds (So bolt guns only). Ackley writes about the proper use of headspace gauges when chambering for AI versions. It's different than for a standard chamber. AI chambers are supposed to headspace about .004" shorter than normal. Incidentally, the AI reduced body taper actually results in a larger shoulder which is better than the standard version for supporting the round (headspacing) when firing.

I also think feeding is primarily a rifle problem not particularly a cartridge problem in this instance - and therfore some work on the rails etc. may be necessary (anticpated). My 35WhelenAI is a controlled round feed Mauser 98 and feeds slick with most bullets and longer COALs.

Another "point" of the AI case is the that the brass seems to flow less from the body to the mouth. So little trimming is needed. And of course factory ammo can be used in a pinch - sacrificing some velocity in the process.
 
I have a 35 Whelen AI and have never had any feeding or headspace problems. If you are building a new rifle why not go AI, even if it only gains a bit you are still ahead of the original chambering and there is more LCF.
 
BAh...


Minimal gains for more effort...No animal will ever tell the difference between a 35 and a 35 AI...And it's not liek there woudl be considerable gains in trajectory at longer distances...:)
 
It's spelled ............ W-H-E-L-E-N. :dancingbanana:

It's a great cartridge in the original form.

Need one? See my sig line, I own two. ;)

35calbbl003.jpg
 
Not calling you wrong M98, but I thought the practical velocity gain with powder increase was around 10% by proportion to increase.

Barrel length may increase the velocity, and maybe the extra bbl length would have done it without the improvement. Each rifle is an entity unto itself.

I guess that's why I find it hard to believe that there is one "killer" load for any particular cartridge that covers every rifle.

bearhunter
 
bearhunter said:
Not calling you wrong M98, but I thought the practical velocity gain with powder increase was around 10% by proportion to increase...
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you mean by that, but M98 is correct. The 35 Whelen Improved will increase case capacity by 6-8%, so MV will increase by about 1/4 of that, or 1.5-2%. That translates into about 50 fps if you keep pressures the same. Of course some guys with Improved cartridges throw that out the window and load until they see "Pressure Signs", hence the claims of a 10% (250 fps!) increase in MV.
 
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I have never found myself wishing it had more power. Less recoil... maybe. But not more power.

I only think of an Ackley treatment for modest calibers that have a big taper - like the 7.62x39.
 
Didn't mean anything derogatory Andy. Just was under the impression that the increase was about half of what's being claimed.

Thanks to both you and M98 for the trivia clear up.

bearhunter
 
There is that better? I am building one on a 98 mauser for a "bush" gun. So thanks for the info but I think I will go with the standard 35 a forget all the fooling with fire forming cases.
 
bearhunter said:
Didn't mean anything derogatory Andy. Just was under the impression that the increase was about half of what's being claimed.
Click to expand...

Me either - I just wasn't sure what you were saying. The "1 in 4 Rule" is pretty well established, and I thought I'd explain it as I understand it.
 
I think any of the Ackley Improved cartridges are only useful in regards to guys that like to tinker and experiment and I can understand that.

As to actual improvement in terms of terminal performance, well that's all BS in my opinion. The minimal gains for the effort required equals nonsense to me; 50-100fps at impact will not make any difference, it will not "flatten" trajectory enough to matter.

There is a guy that writes about it over on AccurateReloading forums and claims sick velocities out of a .30-06AI - like magnum performance. I do not see how that can be achieved SAFELY. But what do I know? I've never played with one and I never will.

FWIW, I went to try to buy some factory Whelen ammo just for sighting in and couldn't get it over the counter at the gunshop in Whitecourt. So it's not like it's a cartridge that is easy to find anyway, so anyone that argues that .35 Whelen ammo is common... well I think has a weak argument.
 
Spending two-three Hundred on reaming and dies for a marginal gain, makes no economic sense and (usually) reduces the resale value. If you want a magnum, buy a magnum.

However, if I had say, a really nice Lever gun in 30/30, I could see "Improving" it, as the 30/30 is one of those rounds that really can benefit, and it allows you to keep the same gun with greater power.

All that aside, they're cool and that's worth something. Sometimes you just want something. ;)
 
when i first started out , this "improved" thing was all the go, but you really only gained about 10% in velocity for about 10-20 % more powder- 8mm improved, 8mm/06 improved, 35 w improved, whatever- but you had to fireform your cases and get special dies, and then you had to stick to your own reloads- i didn't fall for it
 
If you really want to improve the 35 Whelen .....

..... just blow out the shoulders, add a belt and call it the 358 Norma Mag. ;)




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