350 yard Moose/Elk Capable 14" Barreled T/C Contender Carbine in 338JDJ #2

[elimsprint]

Where does the law say you can cut a barrel if its manufactured under 18"?

The only thing I see is

Prohib :

rifles and shotguns that have been altered by sawing or other means so that their barrel length is less than 457 mm or their overall length is less than 660 mm;

Therefore, my interpretation is if it has been cut to less than 457mm (18"ish) the firearm is prohib.

A cut barrel cannot make a gun R unless it's between 18 and 18.5" on a semi (which is a pretty particular case, and it's not the barrel that is restricted its still just a hunk of unrestricted metal). If you cut it to under 18" the gun (not the barrel, the barrel is still nothing) becomes prohib. Above 18.5" its NR, or 18" for anything not a semi.

This is all governed by the classification system. I am unaware of any laws that make barrels themselves restricted or prohibited (except potentially handgun barrels under the legal length), they are unregulated. Firearms become prohib if a barrel that has been cut (not manufactured) to under 18' is installed, but the barrel itself has no classification.


OP, I have zero issues with your setup. Assuming they're manufactured to that length they're perfectly legal - and they look like some mighty fun guns! However, I think your interpretation of how laws work with regards to barrels is incorrect, and I'm just trying to get things straightened out so nobody does something illegal without intending it...

The point you miss there is that it had to be longer than 18" to be cut to less than 18", that law does not cover manufactured shorter than 18" barrels. The tech I talked to said that cutting a manufactured under 18" barrel shorter was only covered by the 26"OAL rule but was a very grey area. He said that if you cut down say a marked 14" barrel (TC marks many 14" barrels as "Super 14") and the gun was under 26" it would be prohibited or restricted depending on the receivers status as they could prove the barrel had been shortened. If it was longer than 26" he said it would be NR and in that grey area as there are really no laws governing shortening a manufactured shorter than 18" barrel specifically other than OAL rules. He went on to state that as MGM and other aftermarket barrel manufacturers barrels are not usually marked for length from the manufacturer and are made to any customer specified length it would be very hard for them to prove that it had been shortened after it left the factory and they probably wouldn't bother trying as it is really only a TC Contender/Encore thing. Think about it, this really only affects these particular guns in Canada as they are the only platform I know of that have both factory and aftermarket manufacturers making short barrels for a platform that can be legally configured into NR under 26"OAL guns. I only discussed the TC Contender R/NR situation with the tech so I don't know how this applies to say an AR barrel but I would assume it to be similar but as CC says, phone the CFC to find out for yourself.

 

[hoytcanon]

Please don't yell at me.

Ahhhhhh.... yahhhhhh....

 

[Camp Cook]

I have multiple bolt gun combos in lesser to far more powerful rounds to a 30-06 that is a completely different story not comparing these guns to anything other than this combo that is only 28.5" oal and weighs only 6.6lbs including the 8 bullets is the coolest 300 yard big game hunting combo that is 100% legal in Canada that I can put together

 

[elimsprint]

Back in the '80s I was intrigued by the Contender concept, and by the mid '90s considered a Contender with a 6.5 TCU barrel as the platform for a nifty survival gun; there used to be a folding pistol grip stock available for it, although I don't recall who the manufacturer was, maybe Choate. But when I finally got to handle a Contender, I was quickly disillusioned, particularly for the application I had in mind. What I objected to was the feature that once cocked, if the hammer is lowered, the action must be fully opened before the hammer can be cocked again. I think about hunting scenarios where you have a shot lined up, then the target moves behind cover, so you would lower the hammer, and move to a better position, or simply wait for your target to emerge from cover, but you now have to break the stupid action, to re-#### the hammer, with all it's associated pops and clicks!!??

So I'm wondering if the new versions have retained that feature. I fail to see the benefit if that feature has been retained, and there's plenty of downside. The ejector pops the loaded round against your hand before you click the gun closed again, then another click as you again #### the hammer. By that time every critter within a quarter mile knows what you're up to, and your target is long gone. Now with a single action revolver, I can safely move from spot to spot with the cocked gun held in my support hand with my thumb placed between the cocked hammer and the frame, with my fingers wrapped around the trigger guard, but the Contender's profile doesn't adapt to that technique very well.

As CC says there is a safety on the old Contenders and it works really well but you can still accidentally drop the hammer if you pull/bump the trigger. The gun doesn't go bang but you do need to break the action to re-#### the gun if that happens. Also the older Contenders don't have ejectors, just extractors so it doesn't pop against your hand when you break the action. In all the hunting I have done with my Contenders over the years I have never been in the situation you describe but I think if I was I would just apply the safety till I either shot the animal or it was far enough away that I could break the action safely to get things back to normal which for me is round in the chamber, gun un-cocked, safety off. I have shot a fair number of deer within 50-100 yds and have never had one spook because of the hammer cocking noise. My muley a couple of years ago was at about 30yds. He knew I was there but he didn't know what I was so I just gave a soft grunt as I cocked the hammer and he tasted great.

 

[Suther]

The point you miss there is that it had to be longer than 18" to be cut to less than 18", that law does not cover manufactured shorter than 18" barrels. The tech I talked to said that cutting a manufactured under 18" barrel shorter was only covered by the 26"OAL rule but was a very grey area. He said that if you cut down say a marked 14" barrel (TC marks many 14" barrels as "Super 14") and the gun was under 26" it would be prohibited or restricted depending on the receivers status as they could prove the barrel had been shortened. If it was longer than 26" he said it would be NR and in that grey area as there are really no laws governing shortening a manufactured shorter than 18" barrel specifically other than OAL rules. He went on to state that as MGM and other aftermarket barrel manufacturers barrels are not usually marked for length from the manufacturer and are made to any customer specified length it would be very hard for them to prove that it had been shortened after it left the factory and they probably wouldn't bother trying as it is really only a TC Contender/Encore thing. Think about it, this really only affects these particular guns in Canada as they are the only platform I know of that have both factory and aftermarket manufacturers making short barrels for a platform that can be legally configured into NR under 26"OAL guns. I only discussed the TC Contender R/NR situation with the tech so I don't know how this applies to say an AR barrel but I would assume it to be similar but as CC says, phone the CFC to find out for yourself.

The tech you talked to is wrong. There is no special provisions in the firearms act or any other related regulations that say you can cut a barrel that was manufactured under 18".

The classification system clearly states any long gun that has been altered (ie cut) to have a barrel length below 457mm is prohib. Period. That's part of the definition of a prohibited firearm. Factory barrels are not altered, they are manufactured that way, so they are not effected by that definition.

The fact it would be difficult to tell whether a barrel was cut or not is entirely irrelevant to what is legal or not.

As for phoning the CFC, that's not a good plan. They gave you wrong info on this, who knows what else they don't know. The only reasonable thing to do is go read the law, or pay a lawyer to read it for you.

Hell, one time I got 3 different answers to the same question calling the CFC. They're phone clerks not Firearms act scholars...

 

[elimsprint]

The tech you talked to is wrong. There is no special provisions in the firearms act or any other related regulations that say you can cut a barrel that was manufactured under 18".

The classification system clearly states any gun that has been altered (ie cut) to have a barrel length below 457mm is prohib. Period. That's part of the definition of a prohibited firearm. Factory barrels are not altered, they are manufactured that way, so they are not effected by that definition.

The fact it would be difficult to tell whether a barrel was cut or not is entirely irrelevant to what is legal or not.

As for phoning the CFC, that's not a good plan. They gave you wrong info on this, who knows what else they don't know. The only reasonable thing to do is go read the law, or pay a lawyer to read it for you.

Hell, one time I got 3 different answers to the same question calling the CFC. They're phone clerks not Firearms act scholars...

I'm happy for you that know more than the tech. I think I've got his card here so I better get hold of him and tell him to consult with you if he needs an interpretation of the laws he's paid to know and testify about in court. If I ever need to I'll go with what he told me but it is all irrelevant anyways as I see no reason to cut down an already short barrel. I got rid of the 10" because IMO it sucked. I don't even know if I would like a 14" as the 10" balanced so poorly and was so freaking loud. My 18" ( cut down from 22") and 21" balance and shoot perfectly IMO. If I was to get a 338 or 375 I would probably go 16-18".

 

[Suther]

I'm happy for you that know more than the tech. I think I've got his card here so I better get hold of him and tell him to consult with you if he needs an interpretation of the laws he's paid to know and testify about in court. If I ever need to I'll go with what he told me but it is all irrelevant anyways as I see no reason to cut down an already short barrel. I got rid of the 10" because IMO it sucked. I don't even know if I would like a 14" as the 10" balanced so poorly and was so freaking loud. My 18" ( cut down from 22") and 22" balance and shoot perfectly IMO. If I was to get a 338 or 375 I would probably go 16-18".

That's cool, get indignant and continue spreading misinformation. I was just trying to straighten things out so anyone reading this gets the right info, but apparently you'd rather people think there is some magic work around to the definition of a prohibited firearm...

From the criminal code :

prohibited firearm means

(a) a handgun that

(i) has a barrel equal to or less than 105 mm in length, or

(ii) is designed or adapted to discharge a 25 or 32 calibre cartridge,

but does not include any such handgun that is prescribed, where the handgun is for use in international sporting competitions governed by the rules of the International Shooting Union,

(b) a firearm that is adapted from a rifle or shotgun, whether by sawing, cutting or any other alteration, and that, as so adapted,

(i) is less than 660 mm in length, or

(ii) is 660 mm or greater in length and has a barrel less than 457 mm in length,

(c) an automatic firearm, whether or not it has been altered to discharge only one projectile with one pressure of the trigger, or

(d) any firearm that is prescribed to be a prohibited firearm; (arme à feu prohibée)

 

[Camp Cook]

Oh my some folk should learn from others experiences... This isn't the first time I have put together short Contenders I put my shortest combo together over 8 years ago it is a 16" match 22LR barrel with a shortened butt stock overall length was 26 3/8" it as well as a couple other of my short setups have been checked over by CO's and LEO's as well as I've discussed them with the CFC multiple times all agree these are completely legal.

I'll share a bit more on the legalities of Contender's if they were imported into Canada as a carbine it is classed non-restricted if they are imported as a handgun they are classed restricted.

Even though the frames are exactly the same our CFC will not for any reason change the class of a restricted Contender to non-restricted.

That means do not install a longer barrel or butt stock onto a restricted Contender and take it anywhere other than an approved gun range.

 

[keith mokry]

Another short single shot would be the Winchester 1885 trapper that prophet sells. Made in a few calls but believe the 4570 would be great to hunt and carry. Little longer brl at 16" but is nice to carrier

 

[Camp Cook]

Those Winchester 1885 Trapper's look like solid fun carbines.

I shoot to 200 yards with my Contender Super 14 barrel in 45-70 I mostly shoot 325gr - 350gr but for bear thumping defense I load 430gr in this short gun.

 

[elimsprint]

Oh my some folk should learn from others experiences... This isn't the first time I have put together short Contenders I put my shortest combo together over 8 years ago it is a 16" match 22LR barrel with a shortened butt stock overall length was 26 3/8" it as well as a couple other of my short setups have been checked over by CO's and LEO's as well as I've discussed them with the CFC multiple times all agree these are completely legal.

I'll share a bit more on the legalities of Contender's if they were imported into Canada as a carbine it is classed non-restricted if they are imported as a handgun they are classed restricted.

Even though the frames are exactly the same our CFC will not for any reason change the class of a restricted Contender to non-restricted.

That means do not install a longer barrel or butt stock onto a restricted Contender and take it anywhere other than an approved gun range.

CC, I'm right with you there. I've been playing with them since '81 or '82 IIRC and have had all the fun you have had. As I posted earlier I had a 24" OAL NR completely legal one and even had a letter from the tech stating that. Unfortunately I

gave the letter to the person who traded me for that barrel and I didn't copy it, wish I had but didn't even think of it as I knew I was never building another. I started with a pistol, added all the carbine stuff to find out it was still restricted

because of the receiver and then hunted down and bought a carbine. You can legally add all the carbine stuff to the restricted receiver but it is still just a restricted range toy. It was fun shooting silhouette with the 7TCU carbine barrel and pistol

grips from the creedmoor position though. Hard to find Contender stuff back then as they were rare and there wasn't really the internet or CGN to help find goodies like that. I found my carbine through an ad in the GunRunner paper. What a

hassle getting it out of ON back then too, phone calls, money order and wait for weeks to see if it was coming. The upside was you could legally go to the states and bring back barrels with little to no hassle. I remember once taking the RZ500

down to Kesselrings and bringing back a barrel taped to the handlebars and no hassles at the border, What are you declaring? What's it worth? Here's the duty and Have a nice day.

 

[conor_90]

Oh my some folk should learn from others experiences...

That will be the day...


You might be surprised by how those 200 grainers expand, they will probably work well at the velocities you will be shooting them at. I shot a muley with a reduced load from .338 win with them and they worked well.

 

[Suther]

Cool story bro.

Wtf does any of that have to do with the fact that any long gun barrel cut below 18" regardless of its original manufactured length will make any gun it is installed onto a prohibited firearm?

No barrels are restricted. Only pistol barrels under the legal limit are prohibited. Everything else is just a hunk of metal. If it's cut too short, installing it on a gun creates a prohibited firearm. The barrel itself is not prohib, or restricted, or NR, because those are classes of firearms not barrels.

 

[AP]

wouldnt a folding stock and barrel at around 20” (or whatever would be required to make the min legal OAL) be a better proposition - Cant help but offset the muzzle blast of a shorter barrel ... maybe provide a little more veleocity ... ??

 

[Camp Cook]

I already have 19" - 21" - 22" Contender center fire carbine barrels I do not own a Choates folding stock.

I shot my biggest antelered mule deer buck in 2009 with the 308Bellm @ 210 yards - shot last years blacktail buck at 200ish yards was with the 19" 6.8SPC barrel nicest antlered blacktail buck was with the 45-70.

* indicates barrels I've shot deer and/or bear with or both.

19" stainless bull cut back from 23" for better balance 204 Ruger
* 19" stainless bull cut back from 23" for better balance 6.8SPC
21" stainless factory tapered 223
21" stainless factory tapered 7-30 Waters
*21" stainless factory tapered was 30-30 rechambered to 308Bellm = 150gr @ 2620fps
21" blued bull 35 Rem
21" stainless factory tapered 375 Win
* 21" stainless factory tapered was 375 Win rechambered to 375JDJ 260gr Accubonds @ 2300fps
* 22" stainless bull 45-70

AP the answer to your question is "Yes" but I've already been there done that I'm now more into the fixed stock 14" barreled combo's.

14" stainless bull manufactured by SSK Ind 338JDJ #2
14" stainless bull manufactured by SSK Ind 375JDJ
14" stainless bull manufactured for me by Match Grade Machine 45 Colt
14" stainless bull Super 14 manufactured by T/C factory

Right now I'm trying to decide if I wait until my new G2 carbine frame arrives before I order a 14" stainless bull barrel in 17HMR it would be the ultimate to me short 75 yard grouse/rabbit/gopher/bobcat combo I'd even try it on coyotes out to 50 yards.

 

[AP]

well - I havent weighed them but I think a fixed synthetic T/C butt is lighter than a Choates folding stock and the fixed stock would be quicker into use as well as give you somewhere to rest your chin.

 

[Camp Cook]

I've thought about buying a Choates folding stock for years now still thinking about it would be a fun combo to slip into my Eberlestock day pack but now that I have a 300 yard 14" barreled combo I don't really need to.

 

[dthunter]

I have been shooting the little Carbine since 1980 as well.

I have a 357 Maximum 21” factory taper barrel, 21” bull stainless in 7-30 Waters, 1 in a bull blued steel, 6mm TCU.

Fun little rifle! I am hoping to procure a custom 21” bull stainless 30-30 improved barrel. Not sure who I will get the 30-30 barrel from yet.

 

[elimsprint]

I sure wish Choate still made their original Contender stock, looked kind of like the folding but no joint or anything. I wish I had never sold the one I had. Really light, good cheek weld and balanced well with the factory taper barrels.

I had one of the folders and it was not a keeper IMO. Very uncomfortable, no good cheek weld for me and you needed a 22"+ barrel to stay legal.

CC, what loads are you running in the 45 Colt? 30,000psi+ or even hotter? It's quickly becoming one of my favorite cartridges but in my full stock Ranch Hand. I guess in the single shot you can launch some way more aerodynamic projectiles.

My cut down to 18" blued 7-30 Waters bull barrel is on the gun for hunting season and the 21" blued factory taper .223 the rest of the year. A Tony Gettel stock and forends complete the package.

I use my Encore when I need a bigger bang but I keep waffling over a 338JDJ or similar for the Contender. A really hot loaded 45 Colt might be fun also.

 

[Camp Cook]

Mildest to hottest you can safely go to... I load to the top Linebaugh/Ross Siegfried or Ruger/Contender loads.

Started my time with the 45 Colt back when I first got into Cowboy action shooting bought Uberti crap handguns and swapped them to two cons ser # 5.5" stainless Ruger Bisley Vaquero's and a 24" barreled Marlin 1894 Cowboy.

Sold the Cowboy and bought a stainless 20" barreled LSI Puma M92 in 454 Casull but also shoot the 45 Colts out of it.

Got into prospecting got an ATC for remote wilderness carry had both Bisley's on my permit but then added 2 Ruger Super Redhawks in 454 Casull both were 7.5" barrels had one shortened to 4.25" loaded 405gr WLNGC's @ 1330fps in this cannon but also loaded and shot my top 45 Colt loads when I was not in grizzly country.

Heaviest 45 Colt loads I shoot are 345gr WFNGC's these whap anything and everything.

I have more thump at 150 yards with my 45 Colt loads than a 30-30 does.

Good info on the folding stock I'll hold off from buying one.

There is a 14" 375JDJ barrel - dies - brass for sale on GunBroker right now...

When I bought off of Gunbroker last they could still just mail barrels direct to us in Canada need an importer now.