I've seen several deer shot through the leg and one through the jaw with large magnum rounds that did not die (not mine, before I get lit up). Calibre isn't much of an excuse for missing. A non lethal hit is a non lethal hit. I am not advocating using itty bitty rounds for deer, but the 'it'll kill em if you miss' is a bad argument.
.357 Magnum for deer
- Thread starter cote_b
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I've seen several deer shot through the leg and one through the jaw with large magnum rounds that did not die (not mine, before I get lit up). Calibre isn't much of an excuse for missing. A non lethal hit is a non lethal hit. I am not advocating using itty bitty rounds for deer, but the 'it'll kill em if you miss' is a bad argument.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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im going to say what I always say know your limits and stay within them. shot placement is key sure some people have problems with heart rate and breathing when a game animal gets in range be patient pass up bad shots and know your limits. bullets and broadheads do the same thing cause bleeding and lung damage(or heart damage or both) penetrate both lungs and you have no problems skin/hair is not a factor for a bullet unless its a varmint bullet same thing go's for the blades of a broadhead. we can sit and argue the point all day but shot placement is key no matter what
Bought a Marlin for shooting deer in .357. Loaded some hot 180 gr. XTP FP bullets and was going to hunt with it. Had a very large racoon making a nusance of itself at my camp, breaking into the grub etc. Hit it @ 85 yards with one of those rounds. You could definitly tell the round hit a good chest shot. Damage was far from promising, I was fairly dissapointed, sold it and moved on. Was great for plinking and got my daughter shooting it with 38 spec., not something I would want to rely on to kill a deer humanely.
best of luck either way
A
best of luck either way
A
well, looking at this Marlin webpage, the 357mag is suitable for both deer and bear.
If I could facepalm myself any harder, I would knock myself out right now.
You're taking the side of a company's website that sells a product for profit over scientific fact and real-time observation?
Original Poster, please, for the love of realistic thought here, I have killed a sh!tload of animals in my lifetime, either because they were damaging my property or for other just reasons, but I have in every case killed them as quickly as I could, for both their sake and mine.
If there is nothing else you get from this thread, I hope it is that your question has been answered that no a 357 is not suitable for killing deer. I assume you were smart enough to know the difference between "I did this once and it worked" (killing a deer with a 357), and a common sense solution for something that is right.
The lunacy of these first hand statements is absurd, equivalent to me telling you that I ran across 401 rush hour traffic with a blindfold on, so it is perfectly safe for everyone to do that, because it has been proven to be effective. Yes, if all the stars align and you manage to hit an absolutely perfect shot despite all of the other factors of distance, wind, your own limitations, and a very weak (relative) bullet, you could potentially kill a deer.
However, it is completely backwards to look at this equation as what the absolute bare minimum calibre you can possibly kill something with. A 223 round has twice the energy of a 357 round, and people debate the heck out of a 223. A 357 is not strong enough to ethically hunt deer with, full stop.
has it ever occured to you that you could possibly be wrong?
Hornady makes a .357 Magnum 140-grain Leverevolution that claims to get 1850 fps and 1064 lb-ft from an 18″ carbine. Buffalo Bore also claims that their “Heavy” .357 Magnum hard cast 158-grain loads will produce 2153 fps and 1626 lb-ft from an 18″ carbine. This would place it in the middle of the pack for .30-30 ballistics, at least within 100 yards, at a cost about equal to premium .30-30 ammo.
Hornady makes a .357 Magnum 140-grain Leverevolution that claims to get 1850 fps and 1064 lb-ft from an 18″ carbine. Buffalo Bore also claims that their “Heavy” .357 Magnum hard cast 158-grain loads will produce 2153 fps and 1626 lb-ft from an 18″ carbine. This would place it in the middle of the pack for .30-30 ballistics, at least within 100 yards, at a cost about equal to premium .30-30 ammo.
Well, lots of good debate over this, that's good to see. I mean, it wouldn't be my primary deer rifle, but in the event that I have issues with my autoloader during next deer season, like I encountered during last season, I just wanted a rifle that could serve as a back up. Like I said originally, I wanted a .44 more than anything, but this came up and since it'll be a plinker 99% of the time, so I went for it. I don't anticipate any problems with my .308 again this season, so more than likely, it'll never see a day in the field anyway.
I did find an interesting article about this topic though.
I did find an interesting article about this topic though.
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As I see it, the .357 even when fired from a hot loaded carbine, is marginal for 200 pound game. The problem is this, when a bullet impacts the target at a velocity lower than 2000 fps, the permanent wound channel, which is the only tissue that sustains sufficient damage for the wound to be lethal, is only that tissue that was in direct contact with the bullet. Now without going into another diatribe on the effects of supercavitation caused by high velocity bullets in tissue, just consider the difference in volume of the permanent wound channels below; a .357 bullet from a handgun compared to a .30/30 rifle.
Now admittedly the .357 will be doing better when fired from a rifle length barrel, but the question is what will the impact velocity be when light for caliber bullets are used, considering that hard cast bullets even when fired at high velocity by definition don't upset very much. The 140 quoted above is well bellow the 2000 fps threshold and with a 150 yard zero it will hit about a foot low at 200. While the 158 at 2153 shoots flatter, at 40 yards its down to 2000 fps, and in a few more yards, like the 140, it's permanent wound channel is only as large as the frontal area of the bullet, and the hard bullet hasn't upset to any remarkable degree. The 140's will expand to a larger diameter, probably not unlike the 125 gr bullet in the diagram, but due to the higher impact velocity, resulting in more rapid bullet expansion, penetration might actually be less than shown for the 125. Upon impact, the 158 gr will stay close to .36" but will penetrate much deeper than the 10" - 12" or so that the 140s will manage. I've recovered hard cast bullets fired from my .458 at much higher velocity, and they haven't upset either.
Okay, I can see your eyes glazing over. When I used to get into long winded explanations as to why I didn't like this bullet or that, or this cartridge or that, with a now retired CO pal of vast bullet on game experience, he'd just smile and say, "Ya well, it won't do em any good!" And that's the truth. But if you expect to fold up your deer with a .357 carbine with the same effect as a 130 gr .270, you might be disappointed.
This is false. Keep your ranges reasonable and and run hot handloads. Some people think deer are hard to kill. Likley same people who take poor shots and cant hit there target where they want to. I think 90% of people are way over gunned for deer, making up for marginal shooting abilitys. I have no problem with these guys using heavy artillery for deer for some extra insurance if it makes them feel better but as far as I am concerned not necessary.
I had a .357 timberwolf once. I loaded 180 gr nosler partitions with 13.5 gr. of H-110. I shot a doe at 50-60 yard, on the run with it. Destroyed the heart. She went as far as far as her momentum carried her. Don't be leery about using one. If you know the gun, and load your using, I wouldn't hesitate at 100 yards! Just my experience, and 2 cents worth.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
some people amuse me thinking a gut shot deer with a .300 win mag would be any different then a gut shot deer with a .22 hornet the are both gut shot over powered rounds are not going to make a difference. shoot what is most accurate in your gun and aim for a heart shot and it will die accuracy and mild power gets game every time in my books
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- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Unlike your own, my opinions are backed by over 40 years of experience, so I am quite comfortable with them.
rubbish...
I have had no problem on my last 5 deer with 357 mag.
Shots from 25yards to just shy of 125yards.
I've used a marlin 1894, a win trapper and a ruger 77/357.
Loads have been Hornady xtp hp over a healthy dose of 2400, 200gn gas checked lrnfp over 2400, 140gn hornady fxt,and 158gn hornady xtpfp over 2400.
The only bullet that wasn't a through and through was the xtpfp
Shots from 25yards to just shy of 125yards.
I've used a marlin 1894, a win trapper and a ruger 77/357.
Loads have been Hornady xtp hp over a healthy dose of 2400, 200gn gas checked lrnfp over 2400, 140gn hornady fxt,and 158gn hornady xtpfp over 2400.
The only bullet that wasn't a through and through was the xtpfp
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
This brings about an interesting question with respect to firearm and cartridge choice; where does one draw the line between sufficient insufficient, and between sufficient and too much? Is the line the same for everyone, and does there even need to be a line? Many attempts have been made to reduce killing power to a mathematical formula, but that has proven to an elusive goal and thus far, an exercise in futility. Small bore enthusiasts can show truckloads of game taken with .22s and 6mms, handguners frequently take game with what many would consider firearms that are both under powered and difficult to use, and black powder rifles have taken all manner of game despite their low velocity. Its as though there are no wrong answers, yet some opinions, my own included, are held with almost a religious fervor.
If we look at two extremely successful cartridges, the .243 and the .375 H&H the comparison of terminal affects is an interesting one. The .243 creates a massive wound in soft tissue, typical of a high velocity small bore, which depending on where it hits, can result in a significant loss of blood shot meat. Due to its moderate velocity, and strong bullet construction for heavy, dense game, like African buffalo, deer sized game are killed cleanly with the .375, yet with little if any bloodshot meat; "You can eat right up to the bullet hole!" they say. With 3' or more penetration, that's a good thing. So one might wonder with which cartridge he is truly over gunned.
If one hunts with a low velocity cartridge, and puts a hole through an organ which is essential to the life of that game animal, its simply a question of time before he can collect his meat. A CNS shot will result in immediate death, but such shots frequently difficult to arrange, and the risk of messing them up under typical hunting conditions is high. I forget his name now, but there was an Australian market hunter who posted here for a while. He would take nothing but head shots, as the lost meat would cut into his bottom line. His tools of the trade were a selection of Remington 40XBs, and by all accounts his success, supported by photos of much game hanging on hooks, he made a decent living for himself and his family. Now this fellow's life experience is very different than my own, but his choice of firearm, scope, and cartridge was perfect for his circumstances, being neither over gunned nor under gunned. Apparently issues of rifle weight, portability, and handiness had been answered to his satisfaction. Everyone has his own ideas, and if supported by experience, none are wrong.
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antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
its the truth both could take hours or even days to die when hunting people should make the best shot possible and pass up anything that's iffy no matter what caliber you have in your hands going beyond your limits is not something you should do
Well here you have it. A pissing contest between guys who've been there and done that, and others that pretend to know. An argument between those who done it and those who say it can't/shouldn't be done.
One thing must not be overlooked. Death does not comes in degrees. You cannot kill something deader. Dead is dead.
This round has done the job. Many, many, many times. On smaller stuff. On bigger stuff.
Practice. Learn the gun. Learn what it'll do and won't do. Set yourself reasonable limits and stick to them.
Oh, and IBTL!
One thing must not be overlooked. Death does not comes in degrees. You cannot kill something deader. Dead is dead.
This round has done the job. Many, many, many times. On smaller stuff. On bigger stuff.
Practice. Learn the gun. Learn what it'll do and won't do. Set yourself reasonable limits and stick to them.
Oh, and IBTL!
You need to hunt more and gain some experience. ... there are degrees of misses. .. not everything that doesn't hit the heart is a gut shot.... larger calibers will open a bigger wound channel and cause greater blood loss....
If every shot you have made has resulted in a drt you havent been hunting long enough to even have an opinion on this topic....
As usual, boomer is correct in his posting.....
