357 Sig vs 9x19

Darren Constable said:
Please remember that feeding most handguns a steady diet of +P+ WILL destroy them. It is way over the sami limits and is not even supposed to be sold to civillians (as i understand, I may be wrong, correct me if you know better) None of my loading manuels show anything loaded heavier than +P.

You can get the +P+ velocity with the .357 sig and shoot it all day long in your sig chambered pistol and not hurt anything. Imagine if someone loaded +P sig ammo....

The muzzle blast issue is real, but so is the blast with +P+ 9mm

my .02$ take it for what it's worth
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If you look at many .357Sig guns on the market, they are simply 9mm or .40 S&W guns with a different barrel. Compare SIG P226 in 9mm to SIG P226 in .357Sig for example. The slide and frame are identical, as are most of the internal parts. The only real difference is the barrel and the recoil spring. I don't see how shooting +P+ 9 mm is any worse for the gun than shooting .357Sig, provided that you install a heavier recoil spring.
 
The way SIG describes it is you get the reliabilty of the 9mm, the capacity of the .40 with the power of the .357 magnum. It has made some serious inroads in the US. The Texas Department of Safty which includes all Law Enforcement in Texas now has the 226 in .357 Sig as it's stadard issue sidearms to all LE memebers, all new personal are issued this firearms and existing personal are being transitioned fromt he 220 in .45, it has as pretty impresive record down there. Still a little expnesive to reload though.
 
capp325 said:
If you look at many .357Sig guns on the market, they are simply 9mm or .40 S&W guns with a different barrel. Compare SIG P226 in 9mm to SIG P226 in .357Sig for example. The slide and frame are identical, as are most of the internal parts. The only real difference is the barrel and the recoil spring. I don't see how shooting +P+ 9 mm is any worse for the gun than shooting .357Sig, provided that you install a heavier recoil spring.
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Same as the .40S&W you mean....drop in barrel to swap calibers.
 
Winz said:
Same as the .40S&W you mean....drop in barrel to swap calibers.
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Right, but as far as I know, the .40 and 9mm frames are identical, and the .40 slide, while different enough not to work with the 9mm barrel, is not really "beefed up" compared to the 9mm slide. What I'm trying to say is that the .40/.357 P226 is not any stronger in terms of construction than the 9mm variant.
 
capp325 said:
Right, but as far as I know, the .40 and 9mm frames are identical, and the .40 slide, while different enough not to work with the 9mm barrel, is not really "beefed up" compared to the 9mm slide. What I'm trying to say is that the .40/.357 P226 is not any stronger in terms of construction than the 9mm variant.
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True, it is a straight swap. But most pistols chambered 9mm come with recoil springs for standard 9mm. No manufacturer will warrenty use of +p on a regular basis, let alone +P+. My point was that you get the sig set up for the pressure level, the 9mm you better be switching springs out on. Cops may or may not carry +P+ but they practice around here with winchester white box from what I see on the range when they leave
 
Darren Constable said:
True, it is a straight swap. But most pistols chambered 9mm come with recoil springs for standard 9mm. No manufacturer will warrenty use of +p on a regular basis, let alone +P+. My point was that you get the sig set up for the pressure level, the 9mm you better be switching springs out on. Cops may or may not carry +P+ but they practice around here with winchester white box from what I see on the range when they leave
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I'm not sure if this is the case at all. A 9mm NATO cartridge is +P as far as SAAMI standards go. Lots of 9mm service pistols are designed around the cartridge, and sold commercially for use with lighter powered commercial loads.

For the debate on P226 design, the slide was indeed made heavier for 40S&W use (the US made stainless slide was introduced just for this purpose), it is the slide that is used in the 357SIG gun. It is also used on US made 9mm guns but it is in fact overengineered for the task, the old pressed steel slide was the 9mm designed slide.
 
Riflman said:
I'm prety sure my HK 9mm is made specifically for +P ammo and can be loaded pretty hot if I so desired.
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The SIG P226, HK USP, Glock 17, and probably most other service type pistols are all designed around the 9mm NATO cartridge. This is a SAAMI +P load.
 
redleg said:
For the debate on P226 design, the slide was indeed made heavier for 40S&W use (the US made stainless slide was introduced just for this purpose), it is the slide that is used in the 357SIG gun. It is also used on US made 9mm guns but it is in fact overengineered for the task, the old pressed steel slide was the 9mm designed slide.
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Interesting, I did not know that. What about .40 and .357 guns made by Sauer in Germany? Do they use American slides? I remember reading somewhere that milled stainless slides were only made in New Hampshire.
 
capp325 said:
Interesting, I did not know that. What about .40 and .357 guns made by Sauer in Germany? Do they use American slides? I remember reading somewhere that milled stainless slides were only made in New Hampshire.
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All 40S&W use stainless slides. I believe that all the SS slides are made in the US. So Sauer likely imports the parts required to build the 40S&W guns in Germany. This may have changed recently though.
 
I hear that the .40cal slide will happily fit my 9mm Stainless 226, do you sell them separately? If so what would be a ballpark figure?
 
Colin said:
I hear that the .40cal slide will happily fit my 9mm Stainless 226, do you sell them separately? If so what would be a ballpark figure?
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Sorry they are not available to me.
 
Colin said:
I hear that the .40cal slide will happily fit my 9mm Stainless 226, do you sell them separately? If so what would be a ballpark figure?
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Maybe someone here knows of a dealer that sells the slide kits, but I reckon your best bet might be buying a used standard P226 in .40S&W and taking the slide from that...and being able to swap to the alloý frame if you so desire.

The 'Wechselsystem' slide kits are offered in Europe, but it would not be practical for North Americans as they generally cost EUR600-700 which is essentially another pistol.
 
While it is true that ‘regular’ 9mm ammo in North America is underpowered compared to 9mm NATO ( which European made guns are designed for) it’s not necessarily +P; 9mm NATO is what 124gr at 1200fps, that’s about 100fps more than your Winchester/Remington loads, but you can get that velocity with some powders without going over the SAMI’s 35,000psi limit (Power Pistol to name one will do that, most powders won’t).


Btw there is no .357sig +P because a regular load is pretty much a +P; 39,000psi - that’s about the pressure of a 9mm +P+ load. .357sig will basically have the same (or worse) effect/wear on the gun as a 9mm +P+ load .
 
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IM_Lugger said:
While it is true that ‘regular’ 9mm ammo in North America is underpowered compared to 9mm NATO ( which European made guns are designed for) it’s not necessarily +P; 9mm NATO is what 124gr at 1200fps, that’s about 100fps more than your Winchester/Remington loads, but you can get that velocity with some powders without going over the SAMI’s 35,000psi limit (Power Pistol to name one will do that, most powders won’t).


Btw there is no .357sig +P because a regular load is pretty much a +P; 39,000psi - that’s about the pressure of a 9mm +P+ load. .357sig will basically have the same (or worse) effect/wear on the gun as a 9mm +P+ load .
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That would be true if sig brass was not constucted from the outset to run at 39000, which 9mm never was, being a 98 year old cartridge and if the siq pistols where not sprung to deal with higher slide opening speeds, which they are, where as 9mm pistols aren't. If you chose to up spring a sig pistol, you could bump pressure up the same way you do with 9mm. It's a stronger cartridge case.

Also the 9mm nato load is a maxed out load to function reliably in subguns in combat situations, pistols are a very, very secondary consideration. Most military pistols are carried way more than they are fired. We have several people posting here who have been back and forth to the hot spot right now, if any of them have ever used the hi power in the line of duty other than function testing, I'd be interested to hear.

Face it, either one are going to ruin you day, the difference isn't huge. But .357 siq is a hotter load than 9mm. My loading manuels all show loads in the 1425-1450 range for the 125gr bullets, and thats without pushing pressure limits. None of them show loads for 9mm over 1200 without going to levels that they don't recomend for regular consumption.


Hey, are you the same fellow I sat across from at the CCW course? Great day wasn't it! A friend of a friend took me over to the rifle range where a guy was there with a 50 BMG rifle he'd built himself. Nice piece of work, even better, he let me put a round down range. Oh boy, I need one of those now......
 
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IM_Lugger said:
While it is true that ‘regular’ 9mm ammo in North America is underpowered compared to 9mm NATO ( which European made guns are designed for) it’s not necessarily +P; 9mm NATO is what 124gr at 1200fps, that’s about 100fps more than your Winchester/Remington loads, but you can get that velocity with some powders without going over the SAMI’s 35,000psi limit (Power Pistol to name one will do that, most powders won’t).


Btw there is no .357sig +P because a regular load is pretty much a +P; 39,000psi - that’s about the pressure of a 9mm +P+ load. .357sig will basically have the same (or worse) effect/wear on the gun as a 9mm +P+ load .
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Velocity tells only part of the story though. SAAMI lists 35,000psi as normal 9mm limit, but the NATO standard is 42,000psi. So guns built around this standard are made to operate at a higher pressure.

http://www.gun-tests.com/pub/17_3/features/5231-1.html
 
redleg said:
Velocity tells only part of the story though. SAAMI lists 35,000psi as normal 9mm limit, but the NATO standard is 42,000psi. So guns built around this standard are made to operate at a higher pressure.

http://www.gun-tests.com/pub/17_3/features/5231-1.html
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Hey, I didn't know that! Thats what I love about this place, you learn something new every time you log in!

Is the nato case standard, or heavier around the base/rim area?

Also, what pistols are built around this standard?
 
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