I am still in the load development stages with my rossi but I have chronographed some reloads and some factory stuff. the federal 158 gr softpoints went over the chrono at just over 1800 fps . these say 1240fps on the box . my one concern is will the bullet hold up at the higher velocities. My first attempt was with some unknown brand 158 grain softpoints that I picked up at a gunshow. The load was accurate and cruising over the chrono at 1880 fps but when I tried one in my damp newspaper test media it shed its jacket which was found about 2" int the paper and the core came apart and the first peice was about 4-5 " int the paper and the bigger piece made it 6". I considered this unacceptable perrormance so I am going to try some seirra 158gr softpoints next. I never fired the federal factories at damp newspaper but I did shoot a row of 4l water jugs . I forget the penetration but the recovered bullet was a textbook mushroom . I hope this info helps.
.357mag for deer?
- Thread starter Jager
- Start date
I am still in the load development stages with my rossi but I have chronographed some reloads and some factory stuff. the federal 158 gr softpoints went over the chrono at just over 1800 fps . these say 1240fps on the box . my one concern is will the bullet hold up at the higher velocities. My first attempt was with some unknown brand 158 grain softpoints that I picked up at a gunshow. The load was accurate and cruising over the chrono at 1880 fps but when I tried one in my damp newspaper test media it shed its jacket which was found about 2" int the paper and the core came apart and the first peice was about 4-5 " int the paper and the bigger piece made it 6". I considered this unacceptable perrormance so I am going to try some seirra 158gr softpoints next. I never fired the federal factories at damp newspaper but I did shoot a row of 4l water jugs . I forget the penetration but the recovered bullet was a textbook mushroom . I hope this info helps.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I have some experience with the .357, it was the first cartridge I loaded for and I've fired tens of thousand of rounds from .357 and .38 handguns over the last 35 years. Despite it's usefulness against human predators it leaves something to be desired in the big game arena. In the American south such as Florida and Texas, the round is often referred to as marginal for deer, and in these states the whitetails are often smaller than ours, by half. A better comparison would be to BC's blacktail.
Lets consider another .35 that has a good reputation as a deer cartridge. The .35 Remington is factory loaded with a 200 gr bullet to a velocity of about 2100-2200 fps. The .357 comes from the factory with a fragile 160 gr bullet at about 1700 from a rifle barrel. Handloaded it might manage to drive a 195 gr bullet to 1500. As such, I believe the .357 should be considered a potent small game cartridge, and that target weight should not exceed 100 pounds. I consider the .357 as the minimum cartridge choice for bear defense when loaded in a revolver, but IMHO defensive guns should not be considered the same as hunting guns. The reason for this is that you use the defensive revolver at a range of a few feet, and the target weight (the head) seldom exceeds 100 pounds on even a very large bear. By contrast when hunting in areas where such a cartridge makes sense, ranges might extend to 100 yards, you are shooting at the body of a 200 pound animal. The bullet is unlikely to expand due to it's low velocity (if it does penetration will be negatively effected) and momentum is unlikely to give you adequate penetration of you are faced with a quartering shot.
In this day and age we have access to very effective light weight deer rifles. I believe that we owe it to the game to choose a cartridge that has an expectation of producing a one shot kill from any angle within the effective range of the cartridge we choose. IMHO the .357 doesn't measure up.
Lets consider another .35 that has a good reputation as a deer cartridge. The .35 Remington is factory loaded with a 200 gr bullet to a velocity of about 2100-2200 fps. The .357 comes from the factory with a fragile 160 gr bullet at about 1700 from a rifle barrel. Handloaded it might manage to drive a 195 gr bullet to 1500. As such, I believe the .357 should be considered a potent small game cartridge, and that target weight should not exceed 100 pounds. I consider the .357 as the minimum cartridge choice for bear defense when loaded in a revolver, but IMHO defensive guns should not be considered the same as hunting guns. The reason for this is that you use the defensive revolver at a range of a few feet, and the target weight (the head) seldom exceeds 100 pounds on even a very large bear. By contrast when hunting in areas where such a cartridge makes sense, ranges might extend to 100 yards, you are shooting at the body of a 200 pound animal. The bullet is unlikely to expand due to it's low velocity (if it does penetration will be negatively effected) and momentum is unlikely to give you adequate penetration of you are faced with a quartering shot.
In this day and age we have access to very effective light weight deer rifles. I believe that we owe it to the game to choose a cartridge that has an expectation of producing a one shot kill from any angle within the effective range of the cartridge we choose. IMHO the .357 doesn't measure up.
So true! Respect your game with a potent enough round ensuring a clean kill!
here an interesting article on that touches on the subject leverguns.com/articles/paco/357_magnum_and_the_literature.htm
some guys down south consider a 357 carbine and hardcast bullets good enough for feral hogs and id think feral hogs are a bit harder to kill than a deer
some guys down south consider a 357 carbine and hardcast bullets good enough for feral hogs and id think feral hogs are a bit harder to kill than a deer
You are likely somewhat closer to a hog when you shoot than you could be at a deer. If you kept your deer distance similar to a hog distance, you would likely be fine.
Even though you have a rifle length barrel, you should be limiting your shots to approx. handgun distances.
freddyfour
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Brant County, Ontario
It seems like we are split down the middle on this one. From what I am gathering is that it will make an OK bush gun(10 to 75 yards) but outside that leave it at home. So for northern Ontario it would be a OK deer rifle, but should possibly be thinking of an upgrade to a .45LC or .454 cassul.
I would have no qualms hunting a deer with a .357 magnum rifle. Same with a .44 magnum, what I do find interesting are those who know nothing other than ballistics and energy charts.
Common logic says you need 1100 FT Lbs to kill a deer at it's impact distance. If your rifle generates 1000 FT Lbs, it's just not good enough. In fact, I laugh when I hear guys preach about this and start rattling numbers off their heads. It's good info to know, but don't bet your life on it. An deceased uncle of mine years ago shot a mulie doe with a .22 rifle. Dropped her dead in her tracks. Another uncle, still very much alive blew the leg off a whitetail with a 7mm-08 and never recovered her.
Two extreme cases I can tell just from dealing I have. Now what about the dozens upon dozens of other cases I can speak of? The bullet went in the right spot, and meat ended up in the freezer.
Another thing that most people don't like to preach about when they start flapping about 3000 FPS on their charts. I just got a .45/70, so I'm going to use that as an example. We'll compare it to the good ol' .30-06:
A 180 grain bullet that starts out at 2700 FPS loses almost 1000 FPS in the first 300 yards.
A subsonic 405 grain .458 that starts just over 1300 FPS loses about 250 FPS over the same 300 yards.
Slower moving bullets can not shoot as flat as high speed bullets, that only stands to reason. But slower bullets still plow through. High velocity bullets are designed to open under optimal speeds and conditions. A bullet designed for long distance shooting doesn't perform to well if Bambi steps out 30 feet in front of you. Likewise, if your bullets slows too much, it may not open at all. Large slow bullets made for traveling slow don't fail to open. They do their job because nothing more is expected out of them. They are built to be shot in their optimal range, at almost any velocities over 1000 FPS, but they also know they won't get shot too fast. So, if I were going to bet on which bullet diameter would hold up best under any condition, I'd bet on the .458. Same goes for the .357 SP bullets. They will go in and do their job. I will even bet they will do a better job than the '06 simply because those who choose to use it know full well they cannot stretch a shot. That means the close shot with the .22 wen't right where it was supposed to, and the hail Mary shot with the 7mm-08 didn't.
Common logic says you need 1100 FT Lbs to kill a deer at it's impact distance. If your rifle generates 1000 FT Lbs, it's just not good enough. In fact, I laugh when I hear guys preach about this and start rattling numbers off their heads. It's good info to know, but don't bet your life on it. An deceased uncle of mine years ago shot a mulie doe with a .22 rifle. Dropped her dead in her tracks. Another uncle, still very much alive blew the leg off a whitetail with a 7mm-08 and never recovered her.
Two extreme cases I can tell just from dealing I have. Now what about the dozens upon dozens of other cases I can speak of? The bullet went in the right spot, and meat ended up in the freezer.
Another thing that most people don't like to preach about when they start flapping about 3000 FPS on their charts. I just got a .45/70, so I'm going to use that as an example. We'll compare it to the good ol' .30-06:
A 180 grain bullet that starts out at 2700 FPS loses almost 1000 FPS in the first 300 yards.
A subsonic 405 grain .458 that starts just over 1300 FPS loses about 250 FPS over the same 300 yards.
Slower moving bullets can not shoot as flat as high speed bullets, that only stands to reason. But slower bullets still plow through. High velocity bullets are designed to open under optimal speeds and conditions. A bullet designed for long distance shooting doesn't perform to well if Bambi steps out 30 feet in front of you. Likewise, if your bullets slows too much, it may not open at all. Large slow bullets made for traveling slow don't fail to open. They do their job because nothing more is expected out of them. They are built to be shot in their optimal range, at almost any velocities over 1000 FPS, but they also know they won't get shot too fast. So, if I were going to bet on which bullet diameter would hold up best under any condition, I'd bet on the .458. Same goes for the .357 SP bullets. They will go in and do their job. I will even bet they will do a better job than the '06 simply because those who choose to use it know full well they cannot stretch a shot. That means the close shot with the .22 wen't right where it was supposed to, and the hail Mary shot with the 7mm-08 didn't.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Pharaoh2, you made some minor mistakes in your argument, but I get what you are trying to say. But, regardless of velocity, we need to choose cartridges that have a reasonable expectation of killing a game animal with a single shot, within the range limitations of the cartridge, from any angle. The .22 rimfire argument doesn't do it for me because there is not a reasonable expectation of a one shot kill on big game except when the little bullet can be placed with a surgeon's precision. While the .357 isn't quite as bad, it still fails to fulfill the requirement of the reasonable expectation of a one shot kill. Suggesting that an unsatisfactory bullet that hits is better than a good bullet that misses is not an argument. Anyone can make a poor shot with any firearm under a variety of conditions for an infinite number or reasons. A miss is a miss, and that's all it is. We used to laugh at the guys who would miss with a .30/30 and go buy a .338 thinking more power would fix the problem, but what I mean is, had the fellow with the 7-08 been armed with the rimfire instead, the deer would of still been wounded. Had he hit the vitals with the 7-08 the deer would be in the freezer, but not necessarily so with the .22.
I agree with what you say about large slow moving bullets, but a .357 is just slow, it's not large. As a result the bullet does not have enough momentum to penetrate as deeply as we would like. Jacketed bullets in this caliber range from OK to miserable. A heavy, hard cast, SWC has the jacketed bullets beat any way you look at it, because a cast bullet don't loose mass as it penetrates, and the flat nose disrupts more tissue than does the JHP that opens quickly (as it needs to in good guy vs bad guy shootings) and as a result penetration is shallow.
If the deer hunter chooses a .45/70, a .444, a 38-55, a .40-65, or a .30/30 loaded with cast bullets, there is a reasonable expectation that they will be able to kill their deer with a single shot from any angle within the range limitation of those cartridges. While it is legal to use marginal cartridges, I would advise those contemplating the use of .357's .25/20's, .32/20's, .30 Carbines, etc to reconsider. Despite the fact that these cartridges have killed deer in the past, that doesn't make them deer cartridges. They are excellent small game cartridges, but not deer cartridges.
I agree with what you say about large slow moving bullets, but a .357 is just slow, it's not large. As a result the bullet does not have enough momentum to penetrate as deeply as we would like. Jacketed bullets in this caliber range from OK to miserable. A heavy, hard cast, SWC has the jacketed bullets beat any way you look at it, because a cast bullet don't loose mass as it penetrates, and the flat nose disrupts more tissue than does the JHP that opens quickly (as it needs to in good guy vs bad guy shootings) and as a result penetration is shallow.
If the deer hunter chooses a .45/70, a .444, a 38-55, a .40-65, or a .30/30 loaded with cast bullets, there is a reasonable expectation that they will be able to kill their deer with a single shot from any angle within the range limitation of those cartridges. While it is legal to use marginal cartridges, I would advise those contemplating the use of .357's .25/20's, .32/20's, .30 Carbines, etc to reconsider. Despite the fact that these cartridges have killed deer in the past, that doesn't make them deer cartridges. They are excellent small game cartridges, but not deer cartridges.
Most any bullet in the boiler room = meat, I've killed deer with different guns over the years and most have done a death run after a good lung shot. The ones I shot with my .375 HH magnum dropped on the spot. It's less work in the long run to pack "Overkill".
