358 Norma Confusion

I have done a few Rugers and none have had a problem, the biggest being a 338-06. A proper job is not difficult if proper technique is used. In my previous post I asked:You say you pillar bedded the action, do you have a positive stop on your screw tightening when installing the guard screws? This is very important when trying to troubleshoot the problem, this is a process of elimination now.
bigbull
 
Easy lads..I am actually hoping it is me who screwed up but the damn recoil area seems fairly rigid. I did do a crappy job on the pillars though. Completely free floated the accuracy was poor. With a new bedding job and freshly tightened with the chamber beddede I have got 200 yard groups of 1.5" or so enough times to doubt being flucky.

Here is the bedding plan. hard to see is about 1/2" of chamber bedding which seems to be the preferred set up.

329931.JPG
 
In this above version the action rails are also bedded...I have also tried two point action bedding. Both seem to work about equally well.

The lock-tite would not hold as I did not degrease the inside threads. I admit to feeling that lock tightening isn't a great idea but I don't know really.
 
Do I have a positive stop when tightening the guard screws. If I understand your meaning: I don't think so. When I made the pillars I freehanded the hole with a hand drill. I messed it up a bit and needed to mess about to fix it. I used steel bed but it doesn't flow well and the job was far from artistic.

I now have a piloted drill bit but the pilot hole is already flawed.

It sure would be nice to have a gunsmith within 350 miles!
 
Takujualuk said:
O.K. but first from the bottom. Again I have began removing the epoxy pillars and you can see the foam core
Click to expand...

I thought you said you had steel pillars? :shock: It looks like you will have to start from the biggining, your problem has nothing to do with crossbolts like others have sugested but more to do with compression in the reciever/lug area. In my experience epoxy pillars don't work unless you have a very ridgid action area. Solid Steel or Aluminum is the only way to go for pillar material IMO.
bigbull
 
Bedding the barrel really isn't necessary in most applications, in particular with light weight barrels. The intent is to try to provide some support to the receiver bedding by distributing the stress over a larger area due to the cantilever effect of the barrel. If its a light or medium weight barrel it isn't necessary and if done on a tapered barrel (most are not pefectly cylindrical) you will run into accuracy issues as the barrel heats up. This issue is more pronounced on slight tapered barrels then cylindrical.

Since your accuracy goes to hell in 40 rnds my first thoughts are the bedding is breaking free and then flexing. The barrel support remains rigid but once the bedding in the receiver flexes or moves it (rigid barrel support) causes the point of impact to shift and to be irregular.

I would do some excavation taking care not to cut through structural supports or original webbing in the recoil area. Actually those supports are probably already damaged so its probably fair to say they need to be redone. The stock maybe defective or may have been reworked once before which may explain the problem you have now.

You can support the barrel but make sure the bedding in the recoil area is bullet proof.
 
bigbull: Sorry for the confusion about the pillars they were made from Brownells steel bed (embedded steel in epoxy)

Big Mouth: As for making the recoil area more rigid what is a good way to do that?

I'll try the aluminum Ruger pillars from Brownells as well. I have two sets in my parts case.
 
Actually if you look at the mechanical properties of the materials, epoxy or poured pillars are not very elastic and once they fail in compression they stay deformed. True metals - Steel and aluminum are both very predictable and are elastic and will spring back.

Epoxies that are 50/50 mix are much easier to be accurate in proportioning then 3-1 or 4-1 epoxies. Screw up a mixture and you screw up the mechanical properties of the end result.

Another suitable material are pillars made from fiberglass rod which do not have a tendency to break free like aluminum.

Screws on receivers are there only to hold the assembly together. Excessive tensioning is not required in most instances (unless your using a HS precision style aluminum bedding block system). Over tension can and in this case may have assisted in the demise of the bedding system.

Bigbull (( It looks like you will have to start from the biggining, your problem has nothing to do with crossbolts like others have sugested but more to do with compression in the reciever/lug area))

- you are very confident with your assessment. I'll have to send all of my customers who experience problems to you for consultation :D. There is no doubt in my mind that there are few items at work here and to a degree they are all related... pending your definition of bedding. Lets hope we iron this issue out and address most of the concerns.
 
Takujualuk - not sure if you mean me :oops: as "big mouth" (no offense taken since as you post to a certain level the site graces you with an automatic "sub-title" appropriate or not :lol: :lol: ) below my site handle 103159 or name "Joe" but I'll put my two cents worth into it.

Lots of different options here. Its time to be creative here now. You need to be able to ensure the side rails are tied in from left to right and ideally from the forend under the barrel area in front of the receiver. This is best done during the fabrication stages of the stock and the OEM would have done this or maybe should have done this.

At this point your looking at either bonding something to the 3 areas or using a mechanical cross bolt coupled with bonding (fibreglass cloth or the various reinforced or composite metal epoxies.

One of the important things is cleanliness and you must remove all of the non-structural foam filler in these areas to enable you to tie into structurally sound stock material (side rails and forend) - the stock skin and any reinforcing you find inside the bedding.

To be honest I would recommend having a professional do the repair, but if you have time and patience and supplies at your disposal.......go to it.

If you decide to do this on your own and it sounds like you have, I would also consider using the tang area (if the steel section of the tang is part of the receiver casting) as a back up recoil lug to transfer the some more of the stress into the pistol grip. This is commonly done with glue ins on benchrest rifles. The action is held in by the glue which takes some shear but the pistol grip provides the real positive stop on actions which do not have a recoil lug (integral or sandwiched between the barrel and the receiver) and are glue ins. If accuracy isn't where you want it, you can always relieve the tang area later.

Keep in mind that the more epoxy you use the more shrinkage there will be so you may want to consider doing the work in stages as opposed to one massive fill.
 
Did you ensure that the bedding material is not acting as a stop at the bottom of the tang - cant tell by the photos.... As you've got the front pillar out, its a good time to experiment. Ensure that the tang is not binding on its bottom - also ensure the rear tang has some clearance at the rear, so the action can seat properly.
 
The bedding job itself is fairly clean. No problem with the tang. This is the fourth version and in each case the zero shifts over time and the action screw loosens.

Accuracy is good then degrades.

I think I need to reinforce the recoil area and put in proper pillars.
 
It kind of looks like an early Lee Six stock which is usually a pretty good stock. Here is how I would bed:
First off, I would use original acraglas which I think is harder and more chemical resistant than steel bed. In addition, the epoxy used in Acraglas is very compatible with the fiberglass of the stock.
I would drill from the bottom a 5/8" hole at the front (on the same angle as the guard screw, of course) and a 1/2 inch hole at the rear. As well, I would mine out some of the filler until I reached the outer shell of the stock. The idea is to bond to the shell rather than the filler.
I would mix the Acraglas quite thick, using extra glass fiber (chopped up insulation works just fine) thenbed and cast the pillars in one operation. I would not bother to bed any portion of the barrel. When bedding I would located the barrel action with tape around the barrel at front and rear. Just build up tape until the barrelled action is sitting at the correct level. The screws then are inserted just enough to hold the trigger guard and floorplate hinge piece in place. There is no tension on them and no stress on the action. The next day remove the barrelled action from the stock, clean up, and reassemble. Make sure the front screw is not bottoming out on the barrel threads.
Done this way, there should certainly be no problem with screw loosening. I can't help but think you have some misalignment at the front which is causing the front screw to work loose but it may simply be a lack of rigidity.
Another point; be sure the bridge of material in front of the trigger group is not cracked through. If it is, the sides of the stock can flex outwards and cause problems. The installation of a crossbolt or screw can help with this if the crack exists. Regards, Bill.
 
Bill if there is an allignment problem how will I solve it? Is it time to let a pro have a look at it? Hate to do that but I am getting a bit discouraged.

I have a piloted drill to increase the width of the holes for pillar bedding, but if it already off I'll just follow the mistake.
 
Try brand new screws. Your old ones could have the tension that is built in to themselves wore out. I know it sounds funny but after a while screws have a way of twisting themselves out of shape and elongating to the point that they will not hold anymore. Also have you tried a new stock? Just a couple of ideas
 
Sometimes when working with Acraglas (and particularly Acragel) the material doesn't flow completely into the cavity as intended. As a kid I did some big concrete pours and used air driven vibrators (4-5in) to ensure the concrete got settled into the rebar as necessary. I have used the same principal when using Acraglas ... except I used a barbers electric hairclipper against the side of the stock to vibrate the material into the void..... works slick and easy to observe the material settling ..... probably some other tools would do the same... orbital sander? Anyway when bedding Brownell stainless pillars I have never had a problem with this approach fwiw...AP
 
Takujualuk,
When casting glass pillars, all alignment is done by the screws. The 5/8 hole is drilled clear through the stock. Everything is allowed to float into place. I have been bedding stocks this way for 30 years and have never heard of one shooting loose regardless of caliber. Regards, Bill.
 
I can't thank you all enough for giving me so many good ideas and a direction.

I have a very generous offer of a new stock on the way donated by a fellow board member!
I'll give it a try to see if it is a stock rigidity issue and if so will spend some time following some procedures outlined to repair the original.

I really like the Norma ballistics and will give this rifle every chance possible to shoot well.

My thanks to all... Greg
 
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