358 Win v. 450 Marlin as a bear stopper?
- Thread starter baumant
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If you are in a situation where you need a big, stop-a-charging-grizzly calibre, I doubt if the bear is going to give you time to take advantage of the extra rounds in a tubular magazine. (If she is accompanied by cubs grown to dangerous size and they pile in, I think you will be having even less time. ) All else being equal, it's reassuring to have more rounds on board, but first choose the gun that you find handles most easily and fits you so that it points naturally and you can shoot it well.
A hit with a 30-06 will stop any bear faster than a miss with a 450 Marlin.
A hit with a 30-06 will stop any bear faster than a miss with a 450 Marlin.
TheTooner said:
Amen, Brother!
When I was still guiding up here, hunters used to often ask what rifle they should bring on the hunt. My answer was always the same. "Whatever rifle you handle and shoot the best. I would rather be standing beside a guy with a 250-3000 who could shoot it, than someone with a 375 who couldn't!"
One year, the outfitter I was working for sent me out with the oldest hunter I had ever guided. He was a millionaire rancher from Wyoming, 81 or 82 yrs old. I guided him twice, again four years later.
His name was Jim Scott, and he could have afforded anything, but he carried an ancient, iron-sighted, 99 Savage in 250-3000. :shock: That's what he brought, both times. 8) He told me he had killed hundreds of head of big game and coyotes with the rifle and didn't see any reason to change.
After I saw him shoot, I was living the other end of the advice I had given for so many years .........................and he could shoot it, too!
Ted
Guns don't kill bears, people do.
Not that I was trying to recommend the calibre, but for the sake of those who haven't had as much experience of their own to learn from, and come here to hear what they assume are wise old heads talking, and may miss the emphasis. Manufacturers spend huge amounts of money on slickly persuasive advertising that basically says their product is an off-the-shelf solution. We must keep repeating that any firearm is just a metal pipe with a wood or plastic handle, until we practice to get and keep the skill to operate it properly.
Not that I was trying to recommend the calibre, but for the sake of those who haven't had as much experience of their own to learn from, and come here to hear what they assume are wise old heads talking, and may miss the emphasis. Manufacturers spend huge amounts of money on slickly persuasive advertising that basically says their product is an off-the-shelf solution. We must keep repeating that any firearm is just a metal pipe with a wood or plastic handle, until we practice to get and keep the skill to operate it properly.
I Have shot Bears with my Old 358 WIN BLR with the 225 gr Sierra bullet and also one with my 450 Marlin BLR with a 350 gr Hornady and both FLATTENED them Good and Fast ! RJ
Trimmer 905
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Holy necro-thread,Batman! 
freddyfour
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- Location
- Brant County, Ontario
Sometimes on my phone when I do a "New Posts" it gives me an offline and a very old "New Post" search for some reason.
Tabacco Brook
Regular
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I probably shouldn't even be posting on this thread, as I live, no where near grizzly country, here on the south shore of Nova Scotia,.. but IMO a cool head under pressure with a rifle that you can shoot well is more important than the caliber it is chambered in,.. one accurately placed shot in the right spot is more important/effective than a half dozen in the wrong spot, (we all know this, just a reminder). The Black Bears here are pretty shy and encounters are quit rare,.. for you guys that live and hunt in Grizzly country, encountering our shy bears here in N.S. would be like running into a pissed off squirrel or maybe a rabid Racoon compared to a business minded Grizzly, lol. However,.. as for the rifle of choice, I would pick the BLR over the Marlin,.. I have 3 BLR's and 1 Marlin, (nothing wrong with the Marlin I really like the one I have).. the BLR's cycle smoother and faster than the Marlins, and as for reloading, I can switch mags in a BLR, giving 3-4 shots, faster than I can get 1 maybe 2 rounds shoved into the tube of a Marlin. (and by the way, BLR mags DO NOT fall out). As for chambering choice, one of my BLR's is a 358win, and I can't see why, with the right bullet, it wouldn't stop a big bear if the shot placement was right,.. but, again, I know nothing of what it takes to stop a Grizzly. The 358win Recoil is on par with the 30-06, brass can be easily made from 308win brass, and bullet options are quit plenty in 35cal,.. just my 2cents worth,..... OP, best of luck and I hope you and your Mrs. never have to find out what it takes to stop a big bruin.
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NICE... trolling via a 14 year old reboot! I bow to you, sir!
I Don't have the 358 BLR anymore but Still have the 450 M and LOVE my Tikka 338 FEDERAL !
RJBecause his wife needed to be able to handle the rifle too, the BLR in 358 gets my vote.
My BLR has been my main backup rifle for guiding, archery hunting and atv/horseback hunting for over 15 years, and has taken many big game animals, including a grizzly. I also carry a spare loaded magazine in a pouch on my belt, which is readily accessible. And I have never had the magazine fall out.
Know lots of guys who bought the 450 Marlin and sold them just as fast, because they did not like the recoil! In this light rifle, it may just be too much of a good thing!
Marlins are fine firearms and work well too.
In an actual bear charge situation, my Marlin in 375 Win with 200 gr powerepoints did a fine job! Shot it left handed in the frontal chest at 4 yards, then again right handed in the side chest on its' second jump as it turned away and I had to step around an obstacle, and then again at 15 yards, finishing it when it turned broadside again while teetering.
But I have taken extensive training for bear watch duties and packing firearms for work for bear defense when working alone. Training requires accuracy and timed trials, including reloading and/or topping off the firearm (rifle and shotgun) during proficeincy testing.
Mydaughter, who is just 5'4" can handle the 358Win, and took her first deer with it.
My wife does not like recoil at all, so I have gotten her a Marlin in 35 Rem fora saddlegun and campgun. At close range, if needed, it will be better for her than my 358, which she does not like.
An old trapper that lived here long ago did have a situation with a sow grizz and her 3 grown cubs. They surrounded him on the trail to town. He took her out, and then the three cubs, with his 94 30-30, because that was what he had.
Practice with what you have, and be able to do it under pressure, and in a timed scenario, so that you become proficient with it. And be mentally prepared. Be aware of your surroundings at all times. This is your best defense.
My BLR has been my main backup rifle for guiding, archery hunting and atv/horseback hunting for over 15 years, and has taken many big game animals, including a grizzly. I also carry a spare loaded magazine in a pouch on my belt, which is readily accessible. And I have never had the magazine fall out.
Know lots of guys who bought the 450 Marlin and sold them just as fast, because they did not like the recoil! In this light rifle, it may just be too much of a good thing!
Marlins are fine firearms and work well too.
In an actual bear charge situation, my Marlin in 375 Win with 200 gr powerepoints did a fine job! Shot it left handed in the frontal chest at 4 yards, then again right handed in the side chest on its' second jump as it turned away and I had to step around an obstacle, and then again at 15 yards, finishing it when it turned broadside again while teetering.
But I have taken extensive training for bear watch duties and packing firearms for work for bear defense when working alone. Training requires accuracy and timed trials, including reloading and/or topping off the firearm (rifle and shotgun) during proficeincy testing.
Mydaughter, who is just 5'4" can handle the 358Win, and took her first deer with it.
My wife does not like recoil at all, so I have gotten her a Marlin in 35 Rem fora saddlegun and campgun. At close range, if needed, it will be better for her than my 358, which she does not like.
An old trapper that lived here long ago did have a situation with a sow grizz and her 3 grown cubs. They surrounded him on the trail to town. He took her out, and then the three cubs, with his 94 30-30, because that was what he had.
Practice with what you have, and be able to do it under pressure, and in a timed scenario, so that you become proficient with it. And be mentally prepared. Be aware of your surroundings at all times. This is your best defense.
I carried various .358 Win rifles over the years while guiding Ontario black bear hunters and also while guiding BC grizzly hunters... always loaded with 250 grain Partitions hot loaded... I have much confidence in what that load can do, having used it several times on bears. I also like the .350 Rem Mag with the same bullet.
- Location
- NFA country
I just grab the BLR in 300 WSM with ammo loaded with 200 grain Nosler Partitions which will put both the 358 Win and 450 Marlin to shame as a bear (any bear) killer and at much greater ranges.
Bin there, dun that.
Boots on the ground reality will always prevail over gun board gossip.
Bin there, dun that.
Boots on the ground reality will always prevail over gun board gossip.
One little thing - if you can get a large-loop lever, it's a little less punishing on the knuckles. The standard lever can be a tad painful. But then, between a ticked off grizz and bruised knuckles...
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- Location
- NFA country
If you shot the bear with a 105mm Howitzer it wouldn't be any deader than my BLR in 300 WSM makes them.
My stainless BLR 81' takedown broken down can be carried in a suitcase.
I could have got the BLR in 450 Marlin but the 300 WSM is a ballistically superior cartridge.
My stainless BLR 81' takedown broken down can be carried in a suitcase.
I could have got the BLR in 450 Marlin but the 300 WSM is a ballistically superior cartridge.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Where you put the bullet is critical, the quality of the bullet is critical, while the size and weight of the bullet are less so. A brain or spine shot with a .243 trumps a gut shot with a .458, but the more objectionable the recoil, and the greater the cost of ammunition, the less you'll be inclined to practice. Without practice many of your skills will remain untapped, and those who've developed will deteriorate. Pick the rifle you like the best, regardless of caliber, although I consider a .30/06 to be a practical, if somewhat arbitrary minimum for bear work. Some questions to consider with respect to rifle cartridges pertain to the end use of the rifle. Is this rifle intended to be a dedicated bear protection rifle, or will it be a a big game hunting rifle? If it is a hunting rifle, what kind of country are you hunting in, and what range do you anticipate shooting from? Will the rifle be scoped? If you scope the rifle, two problems arise, first, is whether you will be able to dial down the magnification to make the scope useful at very close range, meaning will you be able to see the bear with enough context (field of view) to be able to make your shot? Will you be able to remember the offset between the reticle and the bore, or will you shoot too low?
The premise behind defensive shooting is that bear cannot hurt you if it cannot touch you, so the purpose of shooting is to stop the bear's forward progression. Killing the bear is a secondary to stopping him; he must be stopped. Hunters are predisposed to making chest shots on game, but a chest shot is a killing shot, not a stopping shot, and bad things can happen in the couple of minutes it takes him to die. Once you have your rifle, sight it in, and have developed a comfort level with it, you should begin running bear defense drills. Don't just assume you'll be able to handle any situation that comes up because you have a rifle. Just like any other discipline, you have to learn this stuff, then practice to keep your skills from deteriorating.
You have to know where the brain is located if you are to have a reasonable expectation of hitting it, shooting the bear in the head isn't analogous hitting the brain. Study bear anatomy. You have to understand the difference between a killing shot and a stopping shot. You should be able to identify the location of the brain in that wide head from any angle, and likewise the position of the spine at any point along the body, from any angle. At the range, or on crown land if your range places limitations of creative shooting scenarios, run drills that reflect the circumstances you might face.
Draw an aiming point on your target paper that is about 4" wide and 6" deep, this depicts the target size and shape of the brain pan of a large bear, not the massive head. The target board should be steeply angled, perhaps midway between vertical and horizontal. Engage this target from 10 yards and in, as quickly as you can, getting the rifle into play from a slung carry, firing a pair of shots with each attempt. Once you can accomplish this on demand, turn your back to the target , then have a partner yell "BEAR!" and you turn and engage the target. Once you've aced this, then have your partner move the target to unexpected distances and and positions, then repeat the scenario. Finally, have the target partially obscured by branches or willows. Don't spend too much time shooting beyond 10 yards. Why 10 yards? Because a bear that is more than 30' away hasn't committed himself to an attack, and in a non-hunting scenario, we don't want to kill a bear unnecessarily. But if that bear spots you at a distance, lets say 50 yards, and closes the distance to 30' then breaks that 30' barrier, you must assume he's up to no good and respond accordingly. Another drill you can attempt is to have a string attached between a quad, snowmobile, or vehicle, and a 5 gallon plastic oil pail. Stand, facing the pail, with you back to the vehicle, then when the pail begins to move as the vehicle accelerates away, attempt to hit the pail as many times as possible.
The premise behind defensive shooting is that bear cannot hurt you if it cannot touch you, so the purpose of shooting is to stop the bear's forward progression. Killing the bear is a secondary to stopping him; he must be stopped. Hunters are predisposed to making chest shots on game, but a chest shot is a killing shot, not a stopping shot, and bad things can happen in the couple of minutes it takes him to die. Once you have your rifle, sight it in, and have developed a comfort level with it, you should begin running bear defense drills. Don't just assume you'll be able to handle any situation that comes up because you have a rifle. Just like any other discipline, you have to learn this stuff, then practice to keep your skills from deteriorating.
You have to know where the brain is located if you are to have a reasonable expectation of hitting it, shooting the bear in the head isn't analogous hitting the brain. Study bear anatomy. You have to understand the difference between a killing shot and a stopping shot. You should be able to identify the location of the brain in that wide head from any angle, and likewise the position of the spine at any point along the body, from any angle. At the range, or on crown land if your range places limitations of creative shooting scenarios, run drills that reflect the circumstances you might face.
Draw an aiming point on your target paper that is about 4" wide and 6" deep, this depicts the target size and shape of the brain pan of a large bear, not the massive head. The target board should be steeply angled, perhaps midway between vertical and horizontal. Engage this target from 10 yards and in, as quickly as you can, getting the rifle into play from a slung carry, firing a pair of shots with each attempt. Once you can accomplish this on demand, turn your back to the target , then have a partner yell "BEAR!" and you turn and engage the target. Once you've aced this, then have your partner move the target to unexpected distances and and positions, then repeat the scenario. Finally, have the target partially obscured by branches or willows. Don't spend too much time shooting beyond 10 yards. Why 10 yards? Because a bear that is more than 30' away hasn't committed himself to an attack, and in a non-hunting scenario, we don't want to kill a bear unnecessarily. But if that bear spots you at a distance, lets say 50 yards, and closes the distance to 30' then breaks that 30' barrier, you must assume he's up to no good and respond accordingly. Another drill you can attempt is to have a string attached between a quad, snowmobile, or vehicle, and a 5 gallon plastic oil pail. Stand, facing the pail, with you back to the vehicle, then when the pail begins to move as the vehicle accelerates away, attempt to hit the pail as many times as possible.
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