I'm thinking of getting a Browing BLR as bear stopper for hiking, salmon fishing etc. I don't like the feed mechanism on the Marlins and much prefer to have a clip. I'd like to get my wife to do some shooting with it so she will feel comfortable if she ever had to use it on a bruin (hopefully I'll be doing the shooting if any has to be done), and so I like the idea of the 358 Win. However, the 450 Marlin is attractive if the bruin just to happens to be a big Griz. I know that the the 450 is pretty stout for such a light gun. Anyone have some advice for me??
358 Win v. 450 Marlin as a bear stopper?
- Thread starter baumant
- Start date
- Location
- Vancouver Island BC
bear gun
The Marlin rifles will take a heavier charge if you handload and they are stronger overall than the BLR. Having a mag in rifle is not good where it could fall out when you need it the most.
The 450 is a better stopper being 45 cal. When you get to your area where you need to have live rounds in your rifle it only takes a few seconds more to load the Marlin and your mag can't fall out. :shock: Think of it this way, your first mistake could be your very last.When you run into a big grizz you won't even hear the Marlin touching off and the recoil will be unnoticed. 8)
Marlin-one BLR- zero
The Marlin rifles will take a heavier charge if you handload and they are stronger overall than the BLR. Having a mag in rifle is not good where it could fall out when you need it the most.
The 450 is a better stopper being 45 cal. When you get to your area where you need to have live rounds in your rifle it only takes a few seconds more to load the Marlin and your mag can't fall out. :shock: Think of it this way, your first mistake could be your very last.When you run into a big grizz you won't even hear the Marlin touching off and the recoil will be unnoticed. 8) Marlin-one BLR- zero
Hey baumant..........Welcome to the site
Another vote for a Marlin but I have a pretty strong bias :roll: For protection I figure its more realiable and just as safe to load a few rounds in the tube mag and leave them there than to fumble for a clip or fear loosing one. But on that front, whatever floats your boat.
For "bear stopper" I'd definitely say the 450 is head and shoulders ahead. Probably a little stiff on the recoil dept for the average woman though. I would suggest either loading down the 450 or personally I'd go with a 45-70. Factory ammo is readily available with modest recoil and lots of killing power. Having said all this the 358 is no slouch, but a bit iffy for very large bears if there's ever a problem. Cheers.......
Another vote for a Marlin but I have a pretty strong bias :roll: For protection I figure its more realiable and just as safe to load a few rounds in the tube mag and leave them there than to fumble for a clip or fear loosing one. But on that front, whatever floats your boat.
For "bear stopper" I'd definitely say the 450 is head and shoulders ahead. Probably a little stiff on the recoil dept for the average woman though. I would suggest either loading down the 450 or personally I'd go with a 45-70. Factory ammo is readily available with modest recoil and lots of killing power. Having said all this the 358 is no slouch, but a bit iffy for very large bears if there's ever a problem. Cheers.......
John Spartan
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Just a little more to the right...
Just to interject, the BLR is the stronger action (lever actuated bolt action) as it is capable of handling the 300 WSM which has operating pressures in around 63000 CUP - max for the Marlin 1895 action is around 43-44,000 CUP with the 444 Marlin and 450 Marlin. You don't see the Marlin 1895 action being rechambered for the 300 WSM or similar high pressure cartridges from the factory or by gunsmiths.
However, there is something to be said for slinging 405 grain hard cast or premium jacketed bullets at a charging bear versus 200 or 250 grain bullets in the .358 Winchester. More penetration and bigger hole with the .458 cal sized bullet then the .358 cal sized bullet. I believe this is what 303carbine was getting at.
That said, the 450 Marlin or better still, the .45-70 Govt would be my cartridge of choice - if you do go this route, be sure to get a good quality recoil pad installed on the gun that will tame the heavier factory loads such as PMC 350 grain jacketed flat point +P+ loads. If you reload, you can make your own heavy bear loads from either hardcast lead bullets or premium jacketed bullets such as Nosler's Partition or Swift's 400 grain bonded bullet. You may also want to put on a good quality ghost ring sight such as that from XS Sight systems or Wild West Guns or other manufacturers for aiming quickly at targets. The tubular magazine Marlin has is pretty reliable in my experience - and depending which version you get - Cowboy can pack up to 9 cartridges with the chamber empty or 4 with the guide gun and regular 22 inch 1895(empty chamber as well). The BLR in .358 Winchester will have only 4 rounds in the detachable magazine(empty chamber) and 3 in the .450 Marlin chambering(again, empty chamber). You would be better off with more rounds available as in the Marlin 1895.
Whichever way you go, both you and your wife should practice regularly with the new rifle to be able to confidently use it in critical situations without delay and be able to aim accurately under pressure. The lever action Marlin 1895 gets pretty smooth with practice.
For the record I have 3 Marlin 1895 leverguns - Guide Gun, regular 22 incher and Cowboy Action in .45-70 Govt., enjoy all three, and would have no problems using any of these on a charging bear if the situation arose. Also have a 336C in .35 Remington, but would hesitate using this on Grizzlies unless I had no choice.
Consider checking out the various levergun forums - leverguns.com, marlinowners.com, shootersforum.com, 24 hour campfire, etc. for more information
However, there is something to be said for slinging 405 grain hard cast or premium jacketed bullets at a charging bear versus 200 or 250 grain bullets in the .358 Winchester. More penetration and bigger hole with the .458 cal sized bullet then the .358 cal sized bullet. I believe this is what 303carbine was getting at.
That said, the 450 Marlin or better still, the .45-70 Govt would be my cartridge of choice - if you do go this route, be sure to get a good quality recoil pad installed on the gun that will tame the heavier factory loads such as PMC 350 grain jacketed flat point +P+ loads. If you reload, you can make your own heavy bear loads from either hardcast lead bullets or premium jacketed bullets such as Nosler's Partition or Swift's 400 grain bonded bullet. You may also want to put on a good quality ghost ring sight such as that from XS Sight systems or Wild West Guns or other manufacturers for aiming quickly at targets. The tubular magazine Marlin has is pretty reliable in my experience - and depending which version you get - Cowboy can pack up to 9 cartridges with the chamber empty or 4 with the guide gun and regular 22 inch 1895(empty chamber as well). The BLR in .358 Winchester will have only 4 rounds in the detachable magazine(empty chamber) and 3 in the .450 Marlin chambering(again, empty chamber). You would be better off with more rounds available as in the Marlin 1895.
Whichever way you go, both you and your wife should practice regularly with the new rifle to be able to confidently use it in critical situations without delay and be able to aim accurately under pressure. The lever action Marlin 1895 gets pretty smooth with practice.
For the record I have 3 Marlin 1895 leverguns - Guide Gun, regular 22 incher and Cowboy Action in .45-70 Govt., enjoy all three, and would have no problems using any of these on a charging bear if the situation arose. Also have a 336C in .35 Remington, but would hesitate using this on Grizzlies unless I had no choice.
Consider checking out the various levergun forums - leverguns.com, marlinowners.com, shootersforum.com, 24 hour campfire, etc. for more information
- Location
- Near Coldwater, Ont
Has anybody had a chance to check out the Win model 94 Timber? I was looking at them online tonight. Chambered in 450 Marlin, holds 4 in the mag, 18" ported barrel, factory equipped with the XS ghost ring sight and Pachmeyer recoil pad.
I am a BIASED Marlin 1895GS fanboy...
So you know my vote! :idea: :!:
Now, a buddy just bought a .45-70 Marlin 1895GS and he's been shooting it out at his Mum's place and she is shooting the damn thing and as Maxwell Smart would say, "Loving it!!"
Ugh!! The dreaded ported barrel!! :!:
So you know my vote! :idea: :!:
Now, a buddy just bought a .45-70 Marlin 1895GS and he's been shooting it out at his Mum's place and she is shooting the damn thing and as Maxwell Smart would say, "Loving it!!"
Workin Man said:
Ugh!! The dreaded ported barrel!!
:!:
I think the BLR is a fine looking gun... of course, I've got 2...
Once again, the bear defense question. I can only think that whatever you can load the fastest and handle the best is the best pick, even if it's a baseball bat... :lol:
Hey, do they still make a Marlin in .45-90 Govt.? That would work very well on a grizz, I think, especially since those things (grizzlys) go from zero to 30mph in about 1 second, so multiple shots is not usually an option.
Personally, if I was in grizzly country, fishing, I'd be fishing out of the turret of an M-1A2 Abrams...
j/k
You and your wife need to be comfortable shooting your "bear defense" gun. Lots of calibres will work. You just need to get one and get good with it, imo.
Once again, the bear defense question. I can only think that whatever you can load the fastest and handle the best is the best pick, even if it's a baseball bat... :lol:
Hey, do they still make a Marlin in .45-90 Govt.? That would work very well on a grizz, I think, especially since those things (grizzlys) go from zero to 30mph in about 1 second, so multiple shots is not usually an option.
Personally, if I was in grizzly country, fishing, I'd be fishing out of the turret of an M-1A2 Abrams...
j/k
You and your wife need to be comfortable shooting your "bear defense" gun. Lots of calibres will work. You just need to get one and get good with it, imo.
Well, no one wastes any time. Good to see. Thanx. I'll be sure to let ya know what me and my musings of "bear stopping" good times bring me to.
Fishing in bear country can be a little hard on the nerves at times. I remember watching a couple of two year old griz scrap over a Chinook a buddy just pulled out of the Cranberry River ( a tributary of the Nass in Nisga'a country ... bears were at 30 yards approx). The bears had been causing problems for a while and I heard they both got whacked a day or so later. I was ten, so it took me a while to figure out that running might be a good idea while the bears were occupied with the fish ... fascinating site for a kid. I had a similar close encounter with big boy north of Mackenzie while hunting caribou a year or two later. This one was even closer but thankfully he was just suprised as me and bolted. I've been thinking about getting a gun just for protection ever since. I'd be sold on the 450 if marriage hadn't come along and complicated matters.
Fishing in bear country can be a little hard on the nerves at times. I remember watching a couple of two year old griz scrap over a Chinook a buddy just pulled out of the Cranberry River ( a tributary of the Nass in Nisga'a country ... bears were at 30 yards approx). The bears had been causing problems for a while and I heard they both got whacked a day or so later. I was ten, so it took me a while to figure out that running might be a good idea while the bears were occupied with the fish ... fascinating site for a kid. I had a similar close encounter with big boy north of Mackenzie while hunting caribou a year or two later. This one was even closer but thankfully he was just suprised as me and bolted. I've been thinking about getting a gun just for protection ever since. I'd be sold on the 450 if marriage hadn't come along and complicated matters.
This most likely isn't the answer that you are looking for: Buy a 45/70. If I read my tea leaves correctly, we won't be able to find 450 Marlin brass anywhere in about 10-15 years.
Why, you ask? Because the 450 has no parent case and thus when sales slide (and they will) no one will manufacture brass for this unique and obscure round.
If you don't believe me, I have a 5mm Remington for sale...
I'd be interested to hear what others think about my hypothesis.
Why, you ask? Because the 450 has no parent case and thus when sales slide (and they will) no one will manufacture brass for this unique and obscure round.
If you don't believe me, I have a 5mm Remington for sale...
I'd be interested to hear what others think about my hypothesis.
- Location
- Near Coldwater, Ont
Hey Demonical, how much louder are the ported barrels compared to the standard barrels? I've heard a lot of guys say they hate them and I see Marlin has done away with them. I have a ported barrel on a 12ga Mossberg and I can't tell any difference between it and my dad's 870 for report (or recoil for that matter). But then neither gun recoils much with 2.75's and I'm a little deaf, so others might notice a difference.
To add to Demonical's info on the ports I'd agree the blast is pretty lively with ports. What I have found is I don't notice much difference from the business end of either ported guns (friends) or non ported Marlins in 45-70 when I shoot them. But the ports can be bloody painfull to others standing to the side and back from the shooter. Not just noise but a skull rattling blast!!
This is a hot debate state side. Some love the ports others hate them. It seems that Marlin has sided with those that don't like them and they don't offer them any more.......
This is a hot debate state side. Some love the ports others hate them. It seems that Marlin has sided with those that don't like them and they don't offer them any more.......
Takujualuk
CGN Regular
- Location
- Whitehorse, Yukon
I have owned a 358 Win and it's a good one but I presently have a ported (I love the ports) Marlin 450 and it leaves the 358 in the dust for close range bear work. 400 grain bullets at 2000ft/sec ought to be easy to reach in the much stronger BLR action. You could also add pointed 300 Barnes X bullets at 2400+ for an excellent 200 yard + hunting load.
This combination is not traditional but with pointed bullets at 50-100 yards beats out even the 458 and 50 Alaskan's as far as retained energy and is better than the 405 at all ranges. Loaded to the pressure possible in a BLR it would easily beat the power potential of the 45-70 in a Marlin.
You can also load bullets out in the BLR to increase case capacity and beat Wild West Arms 457 Magnum. In fact I wonder if you could out do the Alaskan even at the muzzle with judicious
Fantastic choice and I hope they sell a boat load. If in 25 years you have run out of brass...add a thread or two/ shorten the back end and rechamber to 458 American. You can then make brass out of any magnum case. In the BLR I'd consider using 458 American data as it was designed for strong bolt gun use while the 450 Marlin is limited to 43,000 psi in the Marlin action.
Damn..I might have talked myself into buying one myself.
By the way Shooting Times has an article on the Win 94 in 450 Marlin and Layne Simpson was averaging around 3" at 50 yards. Yucch! My Marlin gets 2" and less (sometimes much less!)at 100 yards depending on load and two of my buddies Marlins in 45-70 do about as well.
This combination is not traditional but with pointed bullets at 50-100 yards beats out even the 458 and 50 Alaskan's as far as retained energy and is better than the 405 at all ranges. Loaded to the pressure possible in a BLR it would easily beat the power potential of the 45-70 in a Marlin.
You can also load bullets out in the BLR to increase case capacity and beat Wild West Arms 457 Magnum. In fact I wonder if you could out do the Alaskan even at the muzzle with judicious
Fantastic choice and I hope they sell a boat load. If in 25 years you have run out of brass...add a thread or two/ shorten the back end and rechamber to 458 American. You can then make brass out of any magnum case. In the BLR I'd consider using 458 American data as it was designed for strong bolt gun use while the 450 Marlin is limited to 43,000 psi in the Marlin action.
Damn..I might have talked myself into buying one myself.
By the way Shooting Times has an article on the Win 94 in 450 Marlin and Layne Simpson was averaging around 3" at 50 yards. Yucch! My Marlin gets 2" and less (sometimes much less!)at 100 yards depending on load and two of my buddies Marlins in 45-70 do about as well.
Takujualuk
CGN Regular
- Location
- Whitehorse, Yukon
I let my mouth go first sometimes..I read the part about your wife having to shoot it and I might rethink my answer.
The 450 Marlin is not a good rifle for the inexperienced. It does kick.
If you reload you could put 250 X's out at 1800-2000ft/sec from a mildly loaded 450. This would put the kick down into a much more comfortable territory. The big hollow point of the X would still expand and the bullet would penetrate very well at this impact speed.
If you don't reload you might consider a different caliber... Do they still make a 257 Roberts?
The 450 Marlin is not a good rifle for the inexperienced. It does kick.
If you reload you could put 250 X's out at 1800-2000ft/sec from a mildly loaded 450. This would put the kick down into a much more comfortable territory. The big hollow point of the X would still expand and the bullet would penetrate very well at this impact speed.
If you don't reload you might consider a different caliber... Do they still make a 257 Roberts?
I'll definitely be reloading for either one, and wouldn't mind somthing that I can take hunting too. Sometime I hunt moose in pretty tight brush. I'm starting to lean towards the BLR in 450 with it loaded down for my wife. She's fired a 375 before and didn't seem to be too worked up over it. However, the reason that I posted the question is that I'm not convinced just being willing to fire a gun is sufficient. I tend to believe that a person should be comforable enough to dust a line of cans at 30-40 yards one afer the other.
Anyone have anything to say about the comment regarding the clip falling out? Never thought of that before. As far as the capacity of the clip, I tend to think its enough. However, the only bear I've shot was eating berries not charging me.
Anyone have anything to say about the comment regarding the clip falling out? Never thought of that before. As far as the capacity of the clip, I tend to think its enough. However, the only bear I've shot was eating berries not charging me.
