375 H&H vs 375 Ruger vs 9,3x62

I disagree with the idea that a .338 is a slow 300 win mag. The 300 win is just a .338 that shoots tiny bullets :D . Also all the published velocities I have seen show the .338 as faster than the 9.3x57 by up to 200 fps in the same bullet weights. I'm sure the 9.3x62 is a great cartridge but the numbers seem to disagree with a lot of what I'm seeing here...

have yet to taint mine with a bullet below 225 grains, find me a 250 grainer .30 cal bullet and we can talk...


Why the dislike for the .338 Kevan?
 
One the whole, 338 bullets are too tough for proper expansion at longer (250yds +) ranges from the 338 WIN MAG. From the faster 338s it's a different story and you can stretch it out to 400yds or so and the bullets are expanding properly. The 300 WIN MAG has a better selection of bullets optimized for its velocity and has a bit flatter trajectory. Also, a 200grn in a 300 is going to be better at range than a 200grn 338 due to longer bullets with better SD and higher BC. For any bullet under 358 I want a muzzle velocity of about 2900fps with typical for caliber weight bullets. I just don't see the practical difference between the 338 WIN MAG and 300 WIN MAG, but when you move up the 9.3s and 375s you can get heavier slower bullets for much better penetration.
For the 375s and 9.3s, generally the bullets are better matched to the velocity produced by the cartridges as the range of impact velocities the designers have to consider is narrower. On the 338 the bullets have to work on everything from the 338-06 to the 338 Lapua.
 
And the 375's go from anemic to 378 WBY velocities, same can be said for them as your argument against the 338's. Look at the 375 Steyr and compare that to the insane 378 WBY. The WBY has up to 6,000 ft-lbs of energy, vs the Steyr's what, 2500ish? I might be off on the Steyr though.
 
For those of us who would never consider shooting game at 400 yards, the .338 carries enough energy to kill anything on this continent in a reasonable range.

Your 9.3 is not going to be a 400 yard rifle either so your criticism is sort of moot, especially when we look at the published velocities...
 
For those of us who would never consider shooting game at 400 yards, the .338 carries enough energy to kill anything on this continent in a reasonable range.

Your 9.3 is not going to be a 400 yard rifle either so your criticism is sort of moot, especially when we look at the published velocities...

The problem with 9.3x62 data is that it's mostly under loaded for weaker rifles like the M96 action. Kinda like what they did to the 8mm mauser, under loading it to 303 british-308 win velocity when in fact it can obtain 30-06 velocities. The 9.3 can obtain 2700 fps with 250 gr nosler accubond which is easily a 400 yard rifle. You can also push the speer 270 gr to 2600 fps and the 286 gr to 2500+ fps. It's just a matter of having a safe action and working up loads. Many members on CGN know these speeds are obtainable with excllent accuracy. I myself have a zastava with a 22inch barrel and yet it shoots Hornady 286gr bullets at 2510fps.
 
The 378 WBY is an outlier, most the 375s fall in the 375 H&H to 375 RUM range. On the 338 side, quite a bit of ammo is sold for the 338 Lapua, can't say the same about the 378 WBY, never seen any for sale (rifle or ammo).

I was wondering with the 9,3x62 I've heard much about high pressure reloads (I would think up to 63,000psi would be fine with a modern action) and am wondering what velocities are realistic with say a 24" barrel?
 
Thanks for the been-there-done-that input Ardent.
And good to see our favorite cheerleader for the 375 Ruger showed up!

I had a previous thread where I asked about the difference between the 338 WIN MAG, 35 Whelen, 358 Norma MAG and 9,3x62 and I did some more research to conclude the sentiment that the jump from 338 to 358+ makes much more of a difference than you'd think. My guess is it has a lot to do with the bullets as well as the larger diameter heavier bullets retaining more momentum.
If you want a 338 that does damage like the 9,3x62 and 375s, you need to use one of the fast 338s such as the WBY, RUM or Lapua. Otherwise it's just a 300 WIN MAG that's slower and has more recoil.

@Ardent: What types of rifles were popular with the PHs in Africa (30-06, 375 H&H and 458 WIN MAG), interested to hear about them all.

I've hunted beside these in PH's hands, seen a good many more passed around camp but not in actual use. Guys like Dogleg and c-fbmi, and A-Zone can offer a much greater survey. BUM, Boomer, and all the good fellows in a bracket I can contemplate will have more as well, hopefully they'll stop by.

The three that had stopped legitimate charges to the end / saved buttocks were the .375 M70 (wounded buffalo), the .458 FN (darted / green hunt lion turned bad, they decided against ever trying this again), and the .470 double (lion). The .470 double featured in a video of the incident where the one PH shot a lion off the other PH while it was shredding the former's hand, both the hand and the cat were never right again.

If you ever feel like you're doing in life one day is interesting, meet the guys plying the customer service trade to grumpy Germans and Texans, and following wounded buffalo and lions shot by clients into long grass and thorn thickets for twenty grand a year... but I digress. The other (bottom, hand chewed) PH is now deceased, but because he fell off a balcony drunk not due to hunting dangerous game. I shot most of these, and owned or at least played with the ones I didn't.

.375 H&H Winchester Model 70 (Stainless)
.458 Lott Winchester Model 70 (converted .458 Win)
.470 Nitro double rifle, obscure African maker I can't remember
.458 Win Zastava, customised (new stock, sights)
.458 Win FN '98

If I had to pick a rifle to save my life it'd be a double, in thick bush follow up African context. From a client and hunter's perspective (my own place) I'd say a .375 H&H that weighs 8-9lbs is the ticket. A VERY experienced fellow a son-in-law of whom who's a member here put me in touch with returned from deep, dark Africa (Congo) on a long expedition hunt, he had a .375 H&H. Two fellows who arrived just after had .300 WSMs, they were hunting light game, anyhow their rifles arrived and no ammo. The rifles made good tent poles I imagine, as a .375 Ruger would have too.

All the case design and efficiency, action length, and technology arguments in the world mean little when cartridges are a pain to come by. I almost would admit the .375 Ruger is superior to the H&H except for two critical details; the Ruger is fat in order to fit H&H power into a standard action, and you'll get one less in the magazine than the H&H, and you'll never find .375 Ruger outside dedicated gun shops. It's being used in Africa now, some places even use them as the loners, but it's a century behind the cartridge it's chasing and given the popularity of the H&H, and the extra round in the mag, it's never catching up. 9.3x62 is the obscure wat to get to medium bore without the trajectory capability of the magnums. A .338 or .375 Mag can well impersonate a .300, a 9.3 can't, while nobody would say it's ineffective. It's very effective, just a lot less versatile, another one of the reasons I sold mine and never adopted it to my battery permanently.

Forgive the rambling, fueled by scotch and iPhone.
 
It comes down to the specific bullet. 250grn Nosler Accubond .338" is different than the same bullet in 9.3mm. And there does seem to be a tipping point at about .358" where the bullets do more damage than would be expected. Now if only I could go on a cull and do some experimenting... Too bad moose in BC are mostly spike fork or LEH, so not many data points.
 
I don't think moose would be a good test medium, they just die too easy. Elk would be better among the ungulates.

Ardent makes excellent points, I just keep adding fuel to the convo for others to ponder....
 
@Ardent: The darted lion (green hunt) sounds like a interesting story, be great to hear the background on that one.
Were you able to do much guiding for grizzly this year? And if so, I'd be interested to hear about your choice of backup rifle and why you chose it.

I'm not sure about the magazine capacity difference between the 375 H&H and Ruger as they both share the .532" cartridge base diameter and I can't see the taper of the H&H making that much of a difference.

Overall I agree with you and I went into this thread thinking 375 H&H would be the most ideal for my intended use and ease of component availability/reloading recipes. My only real apprehension was getting used to the longer bolt throw on the 375 H&H (it's usually 3/4" longer) as I only use 30-06 length actions now. However I can learn and adapt (and maybe give myself a fat lip, but so what). Plus, I don't see the point in the 338 WIN MAG when I have a 7mm REM MAG and 30-06, not enough of a step up in power, whereas the 375 H&H and company will provide a noticeable boost and give me a decent and non-marginal option should I get a grizz or bison.
 
In what world can a 9.3x62 be hot rodded to .338 velocities with a 250 grain bullet?

All the data I've seen has the .338 going a few hundred fps faster even with 300 grainers.

Ardent did you not see any 9.3's in Namibia? I thought the former Germany colonies were its stronghold.

I have yet to hunt Namibia, unfortunately, though I've been right to its borders hunting. Will definitely pay attention when there, considering 2018 for Namibia.
 
That barnes data for the 9.3x62 is yet again under loaded. Heres some warmer data from Real guns.

9.3x62 (Test rifle: Ruger m77 African)

http://www.realguns.com/loads/93x62mm.htm

375 H&H ( Test rifles: Ruger #1 and Cz 550)

http://www.realguns.com/loads/375.htm

375 Ruger (Test rifle: Ruger M77 African)

http://www.realguns.com/loads/375Ruger.htm

From this data you can clearly see that the 9.3x62 Nips at the Heels of the H&H and the Ruger pulling slightly away at 2800fps for a 300gr.
If I ever get a chance to hunt Africa I would like to do it with the 9.3x62 and with 8x57 or 7x64.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for posting the data from Barnes, I know that took a bit of work. It really shows the 400+fps you get with the 375 (H&H and Ruger) over the 9,3x62. You'd be at powder burn distance with the 9,3x62 to be as effective as the 375s at 100+yds.
 
@Ardent: The darted lion (green hunt) sounds like a interesting story, be great to hear the background on that one.
Were you able to do much guiding for grizzly this year? And if so, I'd be interested to hear about your choice of backup rifle and why you chose it.

I'm not sure about the magazine capacity difference between the 375 H&H and Ruger as they both share the .532" cartridge base diameter and I can't see the taper of the H&H making that much of a difference.

Overall I agree with you and I went into this thread thinking 375 H&H would be the most ideal for my intended use and ease of component availability/reloading recipes. My only real apprehension was getting used to the longer bolt throw on the 375 H&H (it's usually 3/4" longer) as I only use 30-06 length actions now. However I can learn and adapt (and maybe give myself a fat lip, but so what). Plus, I don't see the point in the 338 WIN MAG when I have a 7mm REM MAG and 30-06, not enough of a step up in power, whereas the 375 H&H and company will provide a noticeable boost and give me a decent and non-marginal option should I get a grizz or bison.

Fair point on the magazines, guilty of comparing Ruger's two .375 offerings the RSM and the African / Alaskan, the RSM now deceased of course. I'm no authority on grizzly rifles, was my third grizzly hunt and hardly let's me have an opinion yet. Though I have strong opinions (stonger when scotched). We did fill our tag this year (Dogleg's bear), and I carried a .375 H&H double rifle- half the time. The other half, including when Dogleg shot his bear I went without a rifle- I trust Dogleg's shooting a great deal. Grizzlies aren't hard to kill, all bears are "soft" creatures and a .300 to .375 with some speed behind it is about as good as it gets... in my opinion. Probably perfection is a .338 Win Mag for them, but I'm so invested in .375 mags I wonder why stop there.

I'm cottage industry building a couple 2 1/4 .375s (.375x57), one will weigh 6lbs or so and that'll be what I carry in the future I imagine, against my own advice on speed.
 
No matter how hard we argue, due to the laws of physics, the 9,3x62 will never equal the 375s. What we can argue is whether the difference makes any practical, repeatable and noticeable difference in performance on the intended game at the expected engagement distances.
I need to get a job in northern BC, shooting a couple of deer a year just isn't gonna cut it for experimental purposes.
 
I pulled up some reloading data I have .

from barnes first manual , a couple h414 / w760 loads

max charge , 250 grain , 60 grains at 2644 fps .... 286 grain 57 grains at 2512 fps .
case capacity 74.87 grains of water .

my own loads for the 250 accubond with a case capacity of around 80 grains of water ( in a improved case ) are 75 grains of h414/w760 ... no idea on fps yet , but it shoots rather flat compared to factory rounds , with no signs of pressure .

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1216462-9-3-bullet-test/page2

whynot mentions he is getting 2700+ with a 250 accubond on a standard 9.3 case


the thread here has some loading info with some more modern pressures .

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...62-loads-for-the-guys-who-want-to-get-beat-up!


I mention this not to start a #### measuring contest , but to point out that there is a lot of potential left on the table with factory rounds and most reloading info ...... and a person should learn how to do casehead measurement and what signs of pressure are when venturing into no mans land .

*edit * show I should have mentioned last night , about the barnes loading data ...... be careful when using someone else's loading data with barnes bullets . they generally have a longer bearing surface , which means more sliding friction in the barrel which can cause much higher pressures with what appears to be a mild load .
 
Last edited:
Ah yes, the magical totally unfounded tipping point that comes with a .28 in caliber that does not apply to the difference between the .300 and .338 but makes all the difference in the world between the .338 and the .366

I guess my point would be that the .338 and the 9.3x62 are pretty damn similar, much in the way the .375 ruger and H&H are. .338 offers more versatility even as a "slow 300 win" with 200 grainers...

Comes down to personal preference I guess, mine is clear. If I could afford all the guns I wanted I'm sure I would have the both of them...

I was going off of hodgons data before hand, interesting to see what the different manufacturers and sights have to say.


We are splitting hairs and hunting season isn't even over yet. Thankfully all of these calibers are capable of killing a grizzly...
 
@conor_90: I am somewhat skeptical as well, just haven't had the rifles and chance to prove anything myself, hopefully that comes in time. Unfortunately I won't be doing any hunting until spring bear season comes around :(
 
Back
Top Bottom