Hi all! I have a marlin 1893 trapper in 38-55. the barrel states black powder so i am looking for some reloading info for smokeless powder safe in my BP barrel and any information on a black powder load with any packing ideas.
38-55 win black powder
- Thread starter bashkev
- Start date
I have the same question...
In the meantime I've loaded the following BP rounds:
Brass: new Starline (the shorter one as they make 2 lengths)
Powder: 41 grains Goex FFG
Primer: CCI large pistol (200)
Bullet: Jet Bullet's LRNFP, 250 grains, 0.379", lubed with SPG
COAL: 2.515"
Other: I annealed my brass before sizing. I added a cork wad (about 1/16") between the powder and bullet and finished the round with a moderate to firm crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp Die. Lastly, the bullet above is pretty sweet with 2 fairly generous grooves to accept lube. The 41 grains of FFG was trickled through a drop tube and was just enough to give me decent compression.
fingers284
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I think you've got the answer for both of you correct...the only thing that would fowl up the issue here is if either of you have a Marlin with one of the badly oversized bores. Early 38-55 bores are notorious for being over-dia. & Marlins have the reputation for being the worst. I have slugged early bores that mike out at .383 and usually the chamber is too tight to allow a case with anything close to a .383 slug to chamber. With these guns you usually get a "lead depositing, spray & pray" group that you have to be satisfied with or keep searching for something better.
If your gun chamber will accommodate a case with an oversized tight fitting slug there is a somewhat easy remedy to create slugs that will work without breaking the bank buying custom molds, that being "up-sizing" the slugs you have by powder coating to fit your bore (easily done, all the info you will need is in the cast bullet section of this forum).
I like the 38-55, but my rifle was a '94 Winchester Commemorative, new manufacture.
Black Powder pressure, according to a quick search, was in the order of 17,000 psi for the 38-55. But pressure is not just a number, BP pressure and smokeless powder pressure, may match numerically, but they peak differently. BP peaks at ignition and after that it declines. Smokeless is a progressive burn, peak occurs a bit later and it maintains the pressure longer. Manufacturers upgraded the steel in their barrels to handle smokeless powder, yet the ammunition wasn't loaded to much more pressure initially. Later loadings were increased in pressure and velocity.
You may want to get in touch with Black Hills ammo, they make Cowboy Action ammunition for the 38-55. A bit more research may be required.
The short answer, if it is stamped Black Powder, and it is in good condition, it should be safe to shoot with black powder.
Addendum: I did look at the Ideal #38 (Lyman) manual from 1951 and it did mention that bullet 375296, a gas checked bullet weighing 280 gr was only for high power rifles having nickel or smokeless steel barrels. I would conclude that the cast lead non gas checked bullets were probably considered safe to shoot in BP barrels, in 1951.
BTW: Historical reference, just to illustrate the Nickel and smokeless steel reference. I like the mouse sneeze round ball load. Note also the duplex 4759/FFg load, you won't see that listed in any new books.
Even with BP, I wouldn't shoot jacketed bullets, safety reasons.
Edit: Black Powder barrels, the steel erodes quickly with smokeless powder, and wears very quickly with jacketed bullets. (According to some interweb info I found.) Therefore pressure may not need to be the main focus, although I'd want to keep pressures low. Although Lyman 375248 is often mentioned as a good bullet, both my molds would not cast large enough. LEE makes a mold, 379-250-RF, and in the mold I had bullets came out at 379.
I looked up my records and this bullet worked well with 18 gr of SR4759, probably impossible to find, but 5744 should work as well. I did not test with 5744, sold my rifle before I got to that. What that tells me, that with the right alloy, this bullet should work well with BP.
Track of the Wolf sells expanding plugs for 377 and 379, to fit a LEE die, they work very well. Without them, seating bullets is a nightmare. NOE sells a similar product. Both are good.
I've cast my own bullets, bought commercially cast bullets, loaded and shot my 38-55 a fair bit, but have no experience with shooting BP or shooting a vintage rifle.
Black Powder pressure, according to a quick search, was in the order of 17,000 psi for the 38-55. But pressure is not just a number, BP pressure and smokeless powder pressure, may match numerically, but they peak differently. BP peaks at ignition and after that it declines. Smokeless is a progressive burn, peak occurs a bit later and it maintains the pressure longer. Manufacturers upgraded the steel in their barrels to handle smokeless powder, yet the ammunition wasn't loaded to much more pressure initially. Later loadings were increased in pressure and velocity.
You may want to get in touch with Black Hills ammo, they make Cowboy Action ammunition for the 38-55. A bit more research may be required.
The short answer, if it is stamped Black Powder, and it is in good condition, it should be safe to shoot with black powder.
Addendum: I did look at the Ideal #38 (Lyman) manual from 1951 and it did mention that bullet 375296, a gas checked bullet weighing 280 gr was only for high power rifles having nickel or smokeless steel barrels. I would conclude that the cast lead non gas checked bullets were probably considered safe to shoot in BP barrels, in 1951.
BTW: Historical reference, just to illustrate the Nickel and smokeless steel reference. I like the mouse sneeze round ball load. Note also the duplex 4759/FFg load, you won't see that listed in any new books.
Even with BP, I wouldn't shoot jacketed bullets, safety reasons.
Edit: Black Powder barrels, the steel erodes quickly with smokeless powder, and wears very quickly with jacketed bullets. (According to some interweb info I found.) Therefore pressure may not need to be the main focus, although I'd want to keep pressures low. Although Lyman 375248 is often mentioned as a good bullet, both my molds would not cast large enough. LEE makes a mold, 379-250-RF, and in the mold I had bullets came out at 379.
I looked up my records and this bullet worked well with 18 gr of SR4759, probably impossible to find, but 5744 should work as well. I did not test with 5744, sold my rifle before I got to that. What that tells me, that with the right alloy, this bullet should work well with BP.
Track of the Wolf sells expanding plugs for 377 and 379, to fit a LEE die, they work very well. Without them, seating bullets is a nightmare. NOE sells a similar product. Both are good.
I've cast my own bullets, bought commercially cast bullets, loaded and shot my 38-55 a fair bit, but have no experience with shooting BP or shooting a vintage rifle.
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Perhaps you could try the black powder substitutes.
I like Blackhorn209. http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/b209blackpowdercartridgedata.pdf
TrailBoss is a bulky smokeless powder that IMR has a load for. http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle
I used to shoot an old Marlin and it did well with American Pioneer. http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/loading.html
I used cast lead bullets without a gas check.
Good luck.
I think I hit a home-run with this gun. When I brought it home and slugged it I got an average of 0.378". I took about 10 measurements and it was more or less split between 0.377" and 0.378" with only one at 0.379". Add to that it cleaned up very nicely and the rifling looks good. Manufacturing date is 1904.
Note also the duplex 4759/FFg load, you won't see that listed in any new books.
I saw that! And 4759 powder - it's like the stuff of legends...
