38 super advice needed

HKMark23

HKMark23

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After years of shooting nothing but the easy to reload, 45 ACP , I'm getting into 38 super.

1) Is 38 super comp brass better to use than 38 super, and will a 38 super pistol generally handle both?

2) Bullets ?? I know they must be 120 gr for IPSC, but do you use .38 or 9mm ? What is the proper actual diameter?

3) As a die hard fan of VihtaVuori powders I'm inclined to go with the Vv N350. Any comments would be welcome.

4) Primers, small pistol or small rifle ?? I've heard you can use either, true ?? Which would be best ?

5) Any tips for making a reliable effective cartridge that makes IPSC Major would be appreciated.


I'm not new to reloading but I'm stating with a clean sheet as far as 38 super goes and need to buy dies and components to start. Your comments and suggestions would be most welcome,,thanx :).
 
HKMark23 said:
After years of shooting nothing but the easy to reload, 45 ACP , I'm getting into 38 super.

1) Is 38 super comp brass better to use than 38 super, and will a 38 super pistol generally handle both?

2) Bullets ?? I know they must be 120 gr for IPSC, but do you use .38 or 9mm ? What is the proper actual diameter?

3) As a die hard fan of VihtaVuori powders I'm inclined to go with the Vv N350. Any comments would be welcome.

4) Primers, small pistol or small rifle ?? I've heard you can use either, true ?? Which would be best ?

5) Any tips for making a reliable effective cartridge that makes IPSC Major would be appreciated.


I'm not new to reloading but I'm stating with a clean sheet as far as 38 super goes and need to buy dies and components to start. Your comments and suggestions would be most welcome,,thanx :).
Click to expand...

Your choice of brass depends on the gun and mags you are using. In theory supercomp is superior in feeding, but with a 10 round limit, I doubt you will have too much problem with rimlock.

As for bullets, that depends on your barrel. Most of the major makers ship only one size, regardless if it's intended for 9mm or super. Yes, in the old days, the .38 super was .356 vs .355.

Viht have an excellent website with loading data, and thier techs will help out with any questions.

You won't go wrong using small rifle primers in the super. If you are loading closer to the new 160 PF, the need is less than with the older 175 pf.
 
My 38 super shoots super and SC brass without either giving any problems.I have thousands of super brass,and my gun is pretty reliable with them,so I cant find any reason to us SC brass.I have heard that some supers need work on the extractor to work properly with SC brass.I have an AFTEC in my gun,and it doesnt seem to mind which brass I shoot.If I was starting off in open division,I would probably go for SC though.

Vit powders are great,but they are pretty pricey and sometimes hard to find.Ive used HS6 for many years and Im quite happy with it.Its a bit dirty,but very consistent and works well in a powder measure.SR4756 has also worked well for me in the past

When the PF was higher,I used small rifle primers.The idea being that you would have less primer flow with the higher pressure.However,with the PF now being 160,I use either small rifle or small pistol,and either seem to work just fine.

As the above poster noted,38 super bore has traditionally been 356,but the aftermarket barrels that you get,tend to be 355,so either 355 or 356 should work fine.Be careful of using 357 bullets in a super shooting majo,you could end up with pretty high pressures

The LOA for the super is also pretty important,you will have to find out what your gun shoots the best and most reliably.

Another tip I have to offer is to get the Evolutionary Gun Works sizer die.This is a modified Lee die,that sizes the case further down on the web than conventional dies,and also sizes to a smaller diameter.Ive found it very helpful when you are dealing with fairly tight chambers.Another must(at least for match ammo),is a case check gauge

Hope this helps
 
Thanx for the info guys, Now I'll be able to buy the necessary components with some degree of confidence. I've managed to find (in stock) the necessary shell plate and case feeder disc for my L&L and I'm going with the Redding titanium die set for starts. I've also ordered a case check gauge from Evolution gun works but not the sizing die as I'm hoping the Redding sizer will do the trick. We'll see.

I'm happy to know that small rifle primers are suitable as I reload for my AR too and won't have to stock yet another type of primer.

I see Higginsons carries the Hornady HAP bullets, which ought to do the trick if there are any in stock. I'm looking for SC brass as the pistol I'm getting does have the AFTEC extractor also. I haven't found any SC brass in stock so far :(. "Ahh, the never ending search for components"!

Once again guys Thanx :).
 
depending on the gun it might or might not shot both 38S and 38 SC. the best thing to do is have to tuned extractors (and a breach face if an SVI with a removable breach face.) the other problem is that lately finding SC brass has been next to imposable. Starline is back order with no date in site. really the only reason to want to use SC breast is if you are going south of the 49, in a 170 mag it will give you one more round, 29 vs 30.

N350, 3N37, 3N38 are all good choices for super. i use 8.4 grains of 3n37 under a 124 bullet for a velocity of 1380 fps. I believe that for a 38 super the actual barrel is .3555. most people use 9 mm bullets but a few people have found that they get better accuracy with 38 bullet.

the reason that most people use small rifle primers is that we are loaded way over SAMI specs and you start to get primer flow with SP primers. by going to the harder SR primers you can prevent this.
 
Shopping done

I've got components enough to start now. I went with Vv N350 powder, Winchester 38 Super brass, CCI SR primers and AIM 124 gr bullets (nominally .356 dia).

Couple more questions guys, if you don't mind.

1) You can reload the same low pressure 45 ACP brass till the cows come home. How many reloads is it reasonable to expect from 38 Super brass (not +P). Just curious.

2) "8.4 grains of 3n37 under a 124 bullet for a velocity of 1380 fps", 1380 f/s is currently more than you need to make major so are you sticking with 8.4 gr to keep the gun running well or will you consider reducing to PF = 160 at some point ? Again, I'm not questioning your load, I'm just curious. I fiddle with "Quickload" software to try and get an Idea what is going on with pressures and 38 super "major" peak pressures are a bit intimidating when you're used to working with 4 ACP. The reason I picked N350 is that it seemed, according to "Quickload", to provide the required velocity with the lowest peak pressure, in theory at least :) .
 
i always run my loads at least 10 PF over minimum. that way when i am at zero level elevation (think Halifax) or in a high humidity area (think Florida with a minimum major PF of 165) i do not have to change my load. i have seen way to many guys trying to run a plus 5 PF get dropped into minor when visiting a different section.
 
.38 Super/comp

Like Walter says; give yourself some cushion. You want to make sure that no matter where you go you will always make major, and this accounts for chronograph variations also. No two are ever alike it seems.

Depending on your set-up, you may also like IMR 4756. I'm using it with very good results (8.4 gr. @ 1.240" oal with Aim 124 gr. plated). It's way cheaper than Viht powders, and usually pretty available. N350 should give you a nice load, but it's spendy.
 
Hey Rob, have you chrono'd in the winter? I chrono'd my old (summer) 4756 load, 8.5 grs and it was in excess of 1500fps. At Area 2 it was right on the money but it is notorious reverse temp sensitive. I have since made a winter load of 8.0gr which came in at 1420fps
 
PH Racing said:
Hey Rob, have you chrono'd in the winter? I chrono'd my old (summer) 4756 load, 8.5 grs and it was in excess of 1500fps. At Area 2 it was right on the money but it is notorious reverse temp sensitive. I have since made a winter load of 8.0gr which came in at 1420fps
Click to expand...

186 pf is a spicy load! Yes I've heard this before but haven't really run into it so far in my guns. I chrono'd at MIC a few weeks back and it was actually a little lower than I expected, though there may have been chrono variations in play (indoors). I had been loading at 8.3 up to then so I pushed it an extra tenth. I haven't been shooting outside in the cold though, and don't intend to, so I'm probably alright. Next major event for me will be SC. Sectionals and Area 6, and if my prayers are answered it will be 25 degrees with low humidity. Yeah, right. I'll chrono before then for sure.

Note that 4756 is definitely batch-lot sensitive though, so if you buy one pound at a time you are going to be chrono'ing a lot. Buying in bulk eliminates that and it's cheaper still.
 
Once again Thanx

Much appreciated guys. I'll go by my chronograph and the good advice here. The software has done its thing and 1380 f/s will be my goal at the range.

Re the Vv powder, I've already bought it. A year or more ago, following advice on a Bill Wilson DVD, I gave Vv N320 a try in my Carry Comp. When Bill said the N320 would burn clean he wasn't whistling Dixie. IMHO if you're the kind of shooter who just likes clean powder, you'll find the price worth it. Otherwise its just powder I suppose though it meters well too. I'm hoping, amongst other things, that the N350 will be clean too though I do realize there's more to that result than just the powder itself, ie I expect there won't be 100% combustion before the bullet leaves the barrel of the 38 super.
 
HKMark23 said:
Much appreciated guys. I'll go by my chronograph and the good advice here. The software has done its thing and 1380 f/s will be my goal at the range.

Re the Vv powder, I've already bought it. A year or more ago, following advice on a Bill Wilson DVD, I gave Vv N320 a try in my Carry Comp. When Bill said the N320 would burn clean he wasn't whistling Dixie. IMHO if you're the kind of shooter who just likes clean powder, you'll find the price worth it. Otherwise its just powder I suppose though it meters well too. I'm hoping, amongst other things, that the N350 will be clean too though I do realize there's more to that result than just the powder itself, ie I expect there won't be 100% combustion before the bullet leaves the barrel of the 38 super.
Click to expand...

No question; Viht anything is good stuff. Just hard to get on demand and expensive. I stopped using N350 due to supply problems and I don't have my notes handy (at work) for N350, but I do know that it was pretty clean, consistent, and tracked really well in the gun I was using it in at the time. You'll have no issues with it, I'm sure.
 
here are some loads copied from Jeff Mass's page. if you are using a plated bullet like AIM you will want to start about 0.5 grains less and work up.

WHO BULLET POWDER OAL VEL PF NOTE(S)
Bruce Gary 124gr Montana Gold RN/CMJ 7.8gr VV-N350 1.260” 1355 168.0 (46) 5-port comp, no hybrid ports
Roy Stedman 124gr Montana Gold FMJ 7.8gr VV-N350 1.245” 1375 170.5 (49) Non-hybrid, suggested by M. Burkett
George Petrinac 124 gr Montana Gold FMJ 8.2gr VV-N350 1.245” 1344 166.6 (70) SVI, Hybrid (6 ports), 6 port comp
Layne Simpson 124gr Horn FMJFN 8.4gr VV-N350 1.265" 1412 175.1 (4A)
Layne Simpson 124gr Horn FMJ 8.4gr VV-N350 ? 1431 177.4 (26)
Harvey Arnold 124gr Rem. JHP 8.7gr VV-N350 1.244” 1444 179.0 (30)
Alan Long 124gr Horn FMJFN 8.8gr VV-N350 ? 1439 178.4 (11)
Layne Simpson 124gr Horn FMJFN 9.0gr VV-N350 1.265" 1506 186.7 (4), ES=18!

sorry the formating does not carry across.
 
i would shoot for the 1350 to 1400 range. each gun like a bit of a different load and feel does play a part of what you are trying to do.
 
OK, job done. I've wound up with this:

Using Winchester 38 Super brass, CCI SR primers and AIM 124 gr (.356 dia) copper plated projectiles over 8.2 gr Vv N350 with COL = 1.266" I get average V = 1378 f/s. This will be my load unless components change.

Trying 8.4 gr N350 with a COL = 1.276, my average V = 1408 f/s which seemed hotter than I need.

Thanx again for all your great advice guys, "much appreciated".
 
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