#4 vs 00 buck

Finding certain sizes of loose buckshot is quite a task these days.

I have compiled #4 and 0 buckshot by luck and sharp eyes. But finding #1 is near impossible.

Even 000 buckshot came into my paws by mere accident. Bought .375 round ball for a 36 revolver. Didn't fit it, so this piddly amount of 100 pellets, might be used in a shotgun instead.
 
Most factory buckshot available now is quite a bit down from its nominal size and weight.

For example 00 pellets are supposed to be .33 and 54 grains apiece, but at least from the major brands its usually closer to .315 and 45 grains as to allow it to fit inside a shotcup and also from being alloyed in order to make them harder.

The difference doesn't sound like a lot but it is when you're dealing with projectiles that aren't all that powerful individually.
 
Terez, a home invasion is different than a burglary, and I think you were the victim of a burglary. A home invasion is better defined as numerous attackers entering a home by force, with the intent of subjecting the residents to violence. The purpose of a burglary is to get your stuff, and it is not in the interest of the thief to confront the resident. The purpose of a home invasion is the thrill of committing violence, sometimes with life changing consequences, against unprepared and helpless residents; theft is just a bonus. Not so subtle a difference.

IMHO, you were fortunate. You faced a lone, intoxicated burglar and were easily able to subdue him. Had you faced a half dozen tough men, armed with blades and clubs, then without immediate access to a firearm, you'd be in for a very bad time. The correct way to respond to this type of event is to get all family members sequestered into a safe room with a single entrance, arm, call 9-11 if you have a 9-11 service, otherwise make the call to the police, and be willing to shoot anyone who enters the funnel, until such time as law enforcement arrives. That is the ideal, but the nature of a home invasion is sudden, unexpected violence, and even with ease of access to a firearm, you might not prevail. But what ease of access to a firearm provides is a chance, and your chances are better with a gun in your hand, than if your sole response is limited to shinning a light in their faces. This is not meant to demean the essential value of a bright light, but a light can also be attached to a firearm.

The usual response I get to this line of thought is that: A) we don't get that level of violent crime here; well yes, actually we do, and B) if your neighborhood is that bad move; move where? Violent crime is mobile, it can find you anywhere.
 
My parents had there neighbours black out drunk son stagger into their house at 2 am not long ago. Crazy as it sounds, he meant no harm and actually cried on her doorstep apologizing the next afternoon. Like terez said, ID who's in your house before you get an itchy finger.
 
870P said:
Most factory buckshot available now is quite a bit down from its nominal size and weight.

For example 00 pellets are supposed to be .33 and 54 grains apiece, but at least from the major brands its usually closer to .315 and 45 grains as to allow it to fit inside a shotcup and also from being alloyed in order to make them harder.

The difference doesn't sound like a lot but it is when you're dealing with projectiles that aren't all that powerful individually.
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This is kind of truthful. I say that because if you anything regarding ballistics study, the tolerance for up-down sized buckshot seems to be published .015 thou.

I recently measured several 00 buckshot pellets, which routinely came to .334-.337 versus .340 as advertised. Depending on what you read also, 00 buckshot could be .33 or .34 as well.
 
870P said:
Most factory buckshot available now is quite a bit down from its nominal size and weight.

For example 00 pellets are supposed to be .33 and 54 grains apiece, but at least from the major brands its usually closer to .315 and 45 grains as to allow it to fit inside a shotcup and also from being alloyed in order to make them harder.

The difference doesn't sound like a lot but it is when you're dealing with projectiles that aren't all that powerful
individually.
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Interesting...I noticed this too.

I cut open a Federal Premium 12GA 3" Magnum 000 Buckshot shell to save the payload for display....it's 10 copper platter .36 caliber pellets are slightly smaller than a Remington Express 3" 000 Buck I opened up. By eye I can notice the Federal Premium buckshot is slightly smaller than the all lead Remington Express brand 000 Buck.

Interesting indeed.


Also....Federals 3" shell #4 Buck is rated at 1100 fps ....the same load in Remington Express 3" is rated at 1225 fps.
 
Regardless of choke, larger, heavier shot tends to pattern tighter than smaller lighter shot within the same velocity range. Shot loads with lower velocities seem to pattern tighter than higher velocity loads. Large shot sizes coupled with moderate pressure loads would seem to be the clear winner. I don't have an explanation for, or an opinion as to why there might be trend by ammunition manufactures towards under sizing shot diameters.
 
Its because you can't stack full sized pellets inside of a sleeved shotwad like you could in a shell without one.

fir_m05_t06_09_a.2.png
 
Federal 12GA 2 3/4" Magnum 00 Buck (12-Pellet) copper plated
Federal 12GA 2 3/4" Magnum #4 Buck (34-Pellet) copper plated

BOTH are my top choices for defensive 12GA buckshot loads



Still can't see why people would want 00 buck standard loads with 9 Pellets, when you can have Magnum 00 Buck with 12-Pellets...in the 2 3/4" shell option.
 
Another show stopper is Federal Premium 12GA 3" Magnum with 1 7/8 oz of BB shot (copper plated) @ 1171 fps ...wow, that's nearly 2 entire ounces of copper played BB shot ....damn.

It's cheaper alternative is the Winchester Hi-Brass 12GA 3" Magnum with 1 5/8 oz of BB lead shot @ 1150 fps. BB shot for PP/defense is a very effective option at close quarters. Nearly 2 ounces of BB shot at over 1,000 fps in 3" Magnum shells is devastating
 
Pietro Beretta said:
Another show stopper is Federal Premium 12GA 3" Magnum with 1 7/8 oz of BB shot (copper plated) @ 1171 fps ...wow, that's nearly 2 entire ounces of copper played BB shot ....damn.

It's cheaper alternative is the Winchester Hi-Brass 12GA 3" Magnum with 1 5/8 oz of BB lead shot @ 1150 fps. BB shot for PP/defense is a very effective option at close quarters. Nearly 2 ounces of BB shot at over 1,000 fps in 3" Magnum shells is devastating
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hmmm
While I understand where your coming from (logical to pick the most tissue shredding), its interesting that most law-enforcement agencies have settled on 00 buck in the 8 or 9 pellet and reduced velocity, low-recoil guise as being the optimal. This is because it offers quick follow up shots, even if the user has a marginal stock weld. Also the stats on stopping power has revealed little difference between these low-recoil 00 buck loads and the super crazy recoiling loads you are advocating.
Marshall and sanows studies (take with a grain of salt), showed a low-recoil 9 00 buck load as having the best stopping power (% one shot stops) of any buckshot loads.
Those 3" magnum buck loads would kick the crap out of a shooter and offer no real world benefit against armed adversaries.

#4 offers poor barrier penetration, limited range, and doesnt have consistent penetration pellet by pellet. This limits #4 to room clearing distances.

000 is apt to over-penetrate. Also it doesnt really pattern that great, especially compared to the premium 00 buck loads. A stray 000 pellet could do some serious damage if it went down the block.

Stick with what the pros choose, low-recoil 00 buck with a flite-control or versatite wad. If you cant find any of that locally, buy standard 00 buck.
 
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diananike said:
hmmm
While I understand where your coming from (logical to pick the most tissue shredding), its interesting that most law-enforcement agencies have settled on 00 buck in the 8 or 9 pellet and reduced velocity, low-recoil guise as being the optimal. This is because it offers quick follow up shots, even if the user has a marginal stock weld. Also the stats on stopping power has revealed little difference between these low-recoil 00 buck loads and the super crazy recoiling loads you are advocating.
Marshall and sanows studies (take with a grain of salt), showed a low-recoil 9 00 buck load as having the best stopping power (% one shot stops) of any buckshot loads.
Those 3" magnum buck loads would kick the crap out of a shooter and offer no real world benefit against armed adversaries.

#4 offers poor barrier penetration, limited range, and doesnt have consistent penetration pellet by pellet. This limits #4 to room clearing distances.

000 is apt to over-penetrate. Also it doesnt really pattern that great, especially compared to the premium 00 buck loads. A stray 000 pellet could do some serious damage if it went down the block.

Stick with what the pros choose, low-recoil 00 buck with a flite-control or versatite wad. If you cant find any of that locally, buy standard 00 buck.
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I've heard from more than a few folks that low recoil buck is noticeably less effective, whether in hunting or social use.

Its been my experience that 000 patterns tighter than 00 of equal configuration. It also does a lot better than 00 against bone and barriers.

Really tight buckshot patterns, outside of hunting, are an attempt to turn a shotgun into a poor man's rifle and reduce the greater hit probability that a more open pattern gives you, if you want tight, you might as well run slugs, or get a rifle.
 
CanadianBaconPancakes said:
I wana pick somthing else up besides target loads to keep in my night stand and practice abit with the rest vs jugs...If there any reason to use 00 for walking around shooting clays, watter jugs, ext... I hear over all even #4 is recomended for home defence because 00 can penetrate walls easy and kill others in your house. Should 00 buck be reserved for hunting, ext or it is an ok target load. These are the only 2 i can find in bulk for a decent price the 00 being more expensive.
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#4 will do just fine. It is designed more as a heavy bird load but will work in a scenario where there is a break in and you have enough time to call 911, then open up your safes, retrieve a shotgun, load it and used it for self defence. If the criminals haven't gotten to you yet, chances are they are there as thieves first and violent offenders second. These types of criminals will be scared off when the lights are turned on, you announcing that you have called the police or worse case the sound of a shot gun blast. They will scatter and if you happen to hit one, #4 will allow someone to stumble out of the house before dropping or running away. They will be apprehended when they find their way to the hospital.

Everyone who thinks that they will use a firearm for self defence in their house at one point in they lives, should conduct an experiment that involves a controlled live fire simulation or take a course where there is one. People will be surprised about the different variables and effectiveness of each firearm. We trained in an old house and compared the difference between a handgun, AR rifle variant and a shotgun without ear protection and factors such as sight, sound, movement and acquisition of target are eye openers and put an 18" pump above all in my books.

As for loads, as I mentioned #4 will do unless you encounter an extremely violent home invasion but in a scenario such as that, things happen much more quickly and you may not get a chance to get to a weapon or the criminal may acquirer your weapon before you do. But in the off chance that you do, the best shot to have is the 00 buck. Standard in the military and used by all law enforcement, 00 buck is designed to drop medium to large game or humans where they stand. For all those who don't believe that violent home invasions happen in Canada please look up the Jennifer Pan case in Toronto which occurred a few years back. The reality is that most if not all home invasions are people who are targeted so the rule of thumb is don't make yourself a target by doing stupid things like flashing around money or bragging about what you have. In the Pan case, it was a combination of poor parenting and a bad kid but never the less, it was a targeted home invasion. Now, if someone is ready for a home invasion and have no problem killing someone in their home then that individual is either in the wrong neighbourhood, wrong occupation, have bad acquaintances or just enjoy drawing attention to yourself and pissing shady people off. In a previous life, that was my job and in during one situation I had a double break and at the last moment I switched from #2 to 000. It wasn't a good feeling but it got the job done fast. We all live with sins and in this life this is part of my burden. I am still messed up to this day and my wife who wasn't even there lives in fear and paranoia even though we live in a very nice area where the crime rate is as close to zero. This really isn't the best way to live.

Guess what I am trying to say is to arm yourself but arm yourself accordingly. Normal people have break ins but if you are preparing for a home invasion, you are either doing something wrong. And if you don't have the fear of killing someone or if you don't have any remorse after you killed someone then even I know that is not normal behaviour. I live on a farm, so my shotgun is behind my door and I have #2 on hand when I know that all I need are #4s but that's only because I come from a messed up past.
 
Garaldtao said:
#4 will do just fine. It is designed more as a heavy bird load but will work in a scenario where there is a break in and you have enough time to call 911, then open up your safes, retrieve a shotgun, load it and used it for self defence. If the criminals haven't gotten to you yet, chances are they are there as thieves first and violent offenders second. These types of criminals will be scared off when the lights are turned on, you announcing that you have called the police or worse case the sound of a shot gun blast. They will scatter and if you happen to hit one, #4 will allow someone to stumble out of the house before dropping or running away. They will be apprehended when they find their way to the hospital.
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I believe that you're confusing #4 birdshot with #4 BUCKSHOT - two very different animals.

I also believe that you're making a number of very unsupportable assumptions here (not to start a pi$$ing contest)...
 
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