40 S&Ws Suck
- Thread starter Melnibonean
- Start date
Horrible jump-cut in that clip. Guy's rig was all messed up in the front end, once he gets out of the traffic jam it is now perfect again. 50cal with a scope, I am sure he shot it once handed too... welcome to Hollywood.
40's don't suck. I love my USP 40, tons of fun!
I sort of go by this philosophy. One vet I talked to was in private security and always ran one platform he trained on constantly. He owned a 9mm AND a .40. He carried a 9mm but had a .40 at home. I asked why? He said with 9mm he can put 15 rds down range fast and most importantly ACCURATELY. When at home it would be a close engagement and you might get one or two rds off at point blank range. Better to have something a little heavier hitting. But shooting at a moving target from 3-20yds is all about shot placement and most people, pro's included, can put 9mm rds down range faster and more accurately. If that weren't true we wouldn't have major and minor categories in ipsc. Two rds of 9mm centre of mass is always going to be better than one or one with an arm or leg hit of a bigger calibre.
I shoot my 40 quite well, for me. I can shoot it as well as my 9mm. Practice is needed, that's all. If someone is in command of their 40, 357mag, 357sig, 45, 44mag, etc, it can be shot accurately. The video of Hickock45 shooting a 44mag round and hitting a gong at an incredible distance will prove this point.
The video this guy posted about how he hates 40's is just his opinion and he is entitled to it. Just don't take it to heart, as it is only his opinion.
The video this guy posted about how he hates 40's is just his opinion and he is entitled to it. Just don't take it to heart, as it is only his opinion.
Most of us shoot recreationally. I own a .40 and have shot a 9mm. My Sig 226 with a .22 conversion is alot like shooting any boring 9mm cartridge out there. Nobody wants to go to the range for "boring", and at the end of the day if shooting .40 is challenging then we are always learning to better our shooting abilities. Its hard to learn when your not challenged!
Similar to what happens with a bigger one. What he meant was in that short opportunity you have to put shots on target he will get more on target with a 9mm. Not to say you cant hit anything with something bigger, he was just saying he'd rather have 5 shots down range on target as opposed to 3 or 4. Just someone else's oppinion. He does have a point though.
My thoughts exactly. Reason why I got rid of my 22 pistol. I enjoy my 9, 40 and 45 immensely. 22lr was so boring for me.
blackacres
Regular
- Location
- Mount Hope, Ontario
Yeah, that is some "funny Sh*t".
TDC, you do not have to answer any of these questions for obvious reasons.
Are you in the Miltary/LEO? If so, my thanks go out to you.
If you are, have you ever killed a human with a side arm?
If the answer is "No" to the above, you also have gained your "opinions" second hand. i.e. Internet, magazines, other people.
If you place shots well, you do not require high capacity.
I only shoot paper, so any center fire pistol serves me well, and yes, I like my 9mm for that purpose.
However, I am curious where "magazines and the internet" come into play when the US Navy Seals select their pistols. Pistols like the HK Mark 23 and now HK45 CT! I recall that this group of trained "killers" can select any pistol they desire. A fellow I work with in the US had a son that served in the Seals in the 90's and he really liked his Mk23.
I highly suspect these guys are much better trained than any of us on CGN's, and I am confident they surely know how to place a shot very well under stressful situations.
Last time I checked they used a .45 ACP side arm to knock down the "bad guys", i.e. Mr. Bin Laden, who was knocked down with a .45!!
I guess Mr. Elmer Kieth had is all wrong as well, "the larger the hole, the more blood loss and damage".
TDC, you do not have to answer any of these questions for obvious reasons.
Are you in the Miltary/LEO? If so, my thanks go out to you.
If you are, have you ever killed a human with a side arm?
If the answer is "No" to the above, you also have gained your "opinions" second hand. i.e. Internet, magazines, other people.
If you place shots well, you do not require high capacity.
I only shoot paper, so any center fire pistol serves me well, and yes, I like my 9mm for that purpose.
However, I am curious where "magazines and the internet" come into play when the US Navy Seals select their pistols. Pistols like the HK Mark 23 and now HK45 CT! I recall that this group of trained "killers" can select any pistol they desire. A fellow I work with in the US had a son that served in the Seals in the 90's and he really liked his Mk23.
I highly suspect these guys are much better trained than any of us on CGN's, and I am confident they surely know how to place a shot very well under stressful situations.
Last time I checked they used a .45 ACP side arm to knock down the "bad guys", i.e. Mr. Bin Laden, who was knocked down with a .45!!
I guess Mr. Elmer Kieth had is all wrong as well, "the larger the hole, the more blood loss and damage".
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- Location
- The Orion Arm
I had read and heard that it was a 9mm from their standard issue Sig226
blackacres
Regular
- Location
- Mount Hope, Ontario
Seals are not limited to "standard issue".
Bin Laden was shot in the head with a .45 ACP.
Bin Laden was shot in the head with a .45 ACP.
Hypothetically speaking...in a post apocalyptic world... Or 'zombie' outbreak, 9mm would be the smartest way to go! Due to the fact that there is an abundment amount produced and is readily available.. Besides of course your shotgun shells and .22lr. Y'all will run out of your .40s&w and .45acp before I run out of my 9.
That being said, who gives a sh*t! I have a firearm in almost every caliber and they are fun as hell to shoot!
That being said, who gives a sh*t! I have a firearm in almost every caliber and they are fun as hell to shoot!
I'm not LEO or MIL and never claimed to be.
I haven't killed anyone with a sidearm or long arm... Yet. I've got a few more years to live so it is possible but highly unlikely(hopefully).
High capacity plays a role in both effective incapacitation and MULTIPLE ATTACKERS, which statistically is how it goes down. More rounds on hand means you can press the fight longer before concerning yourself with bulsh*t like reloading. I don't see too many competitive shooters running lower capacity guns over higher ones as an "advantage". Then again, we aren't really discussing competition so I digress.
I too shoot paper, but I have no issues shooting flesh either should the need arise. I've posted this in the past and I will post it again. My guns are set up for killing people, their intended purpose. What I mean by that is that my guns are setup to be as reliable as possible without sacrificing performance. They don't wear useless crap and are of quality manufacture. I'm only interested in useful firearms as I don't "collect" them or possess them as a toy or hobby. I see them as tools.
The MK23 was adopted by US SOCOM which doesn't mean it was issued to the SEALs. SIG 226 is the order of the day for most and I'm sure they run several other makes/models as they desire. Again, check your information, the performance "gain" of .40 or .45 over 9mm is trivial at best. Sidearms suck, the key factor in shooting people with sidearms is shot placement and lots of holes. There's no doubt Elmer Keith was on to something with his statement about larger holes creating more damage. However, excessive recoil, low magazine capacity and poor shot placement are not things that a mere 2.25mm of additional diameter can solve.
No one knows what they're being shot with and cannot "react" accordingly. Physiological response due to trauma is what determines the outcome, not calibre. If you can shoot 4 rounds of 9mm faster and more accurately than 2 rounds of .45(or 40), why wouldn't you? Some quick math puts you at 36mm of entry wound diameter with 4 separate wound tracts, vs 22.5mm(.45) of entry wound diameter with only 2 wound tracts. Which do you think has the potential to damage more tissue and more important tissue?? As mentioned above, running a quality 9mm with 15-17 rounds per magazine puts you a full 6-9 rounds ahead of a 1911(comparing full size to full size). That means you'd be reloading almost half as often as the .45 guy. Put another way, that means you can engage him round for round nearly 2:1. Under stress how long do you think it takes to empty the magazine in your pistol? How many rounds on average (LEO) are hits in a gunfight? The answers to those questions are about 2 seconds and between 9-64% depending on conditions and number of officers involved. Even on the high end, one third to a half of your rounds are misses. With only 8 rounds in the gun that means only 4 or 5 are effective. So of the 4 or 5 rounds that are making hits(remember this is best case scenario) and an average round count to incapacitation of 2.08 which means 3, that leaves you with the ability to handle 2 threats before a reload. With a 9mm the average rounds to incapacitate is 2.45 or 3 which means you have the ability to handle 5 threats before a reload. See the advantage here? By comparison the .40 averages 3 rounds as well which permits 5 threats before a reload, but it comes at the cost of increased recoil and in some cases a loss in magazine capacity.
Check out the second link below and carefully compare the numbers. Although not definitive data, it is a good indicator of just how similar the modern calibres are in terms of performance.
http://www.policeone.com/officer-sh...in-the-details-of-officer-involved-shootings/
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866
TDC
blackacres
Regular
- Location
- Mount Hope, Ontario
TDC.............whatever you are smoking must be some good sh*t!
You must have missed what I posted, I have met and spoken to an ex-Seal who carried a Mk23 during his tours in the early/mid 90's.
I was not aware that a Sig 226 was able to shoot .45 ACP. Again you must have missed my comment that a Navy Seal on team 6 shot Bin Laden using a .45 ACP round.
If my HK45 wasn't limited to our 10 round limit, it would hold 12 rounds, same goes for my Mk23. I'll take 12 rounds of .45 over 17 rounds of 9mm if the very slim chance of the SHTF one day.
It basically comes down to common physics, E ∝ mv² , do you recall that formula? To the best of my knowledge and a guy named Mr. Newton, the greater the kinetic energy imparted on an object, the more damage.
The recoil from my Mk23 and HK45, especially the Mk23 are not violent/harsh, really not that much more than my Sig 226 9mm.
You claim in your earlier post that it's not wise to read what is on the internet or in magazines, but yet you included internet links in your last post to reference! Did you contradict yourself, or am I wrong?
The rest of the content for a Canadian that is not Military/LEO is....................................someone day dreaming.
Have a good day on the computer.
Cheers.
You must have missed what I posted, I have met and spoken to an ex-Seal who carried a Mk23 during his tours in the early/mid 90's.
I was not aware that a Sig 226 was able to shoot .45 ACP. Again you must have missed my comment that a Navy Seal on team 6 shot Bin Laden using a .45 ACP round.
If my HK45 wasn't limited to our 10 round limit, it would hold 12 rounds, same goes for my Mk23. I'll take 12 rounds of .45 over 17 rounds of 9mm if the very slim chance of the SHTF one day.
It basically comes down to common physics, E ∝ mv² , do you recall that formula? To the best of my knowledge and a guy named Mr. Newton, the greater the kinetic energy imparted on an object, the more damage.
The recoil from my Mk23 and HK45, especially the Mk23 are not violent/harsh, really not that much more than my Sig 226 9mm.
You claim in your earlier post that it's not wise to read what is on the internet or in magazines, but yet you included internet links in your last post to reference! Did you contradict yourself, or am I wrong?
The rest of the content for a Canadian that is not Military/LEO is....................................someone day dreaming.
Have a good day on the computer.
Cheers.
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ALL Semantics, one part of the equation is not mentioned...actually hitting the target/perp. Even a .45ACP that misses the target puts you in a very bad position no matter how big and fast the bullet is... A head shot from a 9mm, .40S&W, or .45ACP will drop the target. Double tap to the body armour followed by a single to the head is good as well. With multiple targets, tactical priority/sequence comes into play, finding cover... a miss is still a miss and you dont get points for style or bullet size/weight/power, all shots that miss SUCK!
I am ex-mil, a competitive shooter, and a contractor in Afghanistan. I carry a 9mm 24/7, I train to hit, not miss. If you have even been shot at, been in a gun fight, then you will realize its not as easy as it is on a target range. A lot of factors come into play, your ability to control your fears, your bodily functions, to be able to react to the threat without hesitation, use your tools effectively, and above all Hit your Dam target first.
All the reading and videos are well and good, some may have some merit, but all that is thrown out the door when $hit happens.
I am ex-mil, a competitive shooter, and a contractor in Afghanistan. I carry a 9mm 24/7, I train to hit, not miss. If you have even been shot at, been in a gun fight, then you will realize its not as easy as it is on a target range. A lot of factors come into play, your ability to control your fears, your bodily functions, to be able to react to the threat without hesitation, use your tools effectively, and above all Hit your Dam target first.
All the reading and videos are well and good, some may have some merit, but all that is thrown out the door when $hit happens.
Someone is a little uptight. I read your entire post and dismissed most of it as bullsh*t. For starters I never said the Mk23 wasn't being used, I was simply stating that it isn't necessarily the pistol of choice. Being that it is grossly overweight and almost the same size as an MP5K it fills a very specific role. AS popurhedoff mentioned, a miss is a miss regardless of calibre. Increased recoil regardless of how little its still more, and reduced magazine capacity are not offset by the so called "performance gain" of either .40 or .45.
As for capacity your math is lacking. Ten or twelve rounds of 45 is still not equal to 15 or 17 rounds of 9mm. More rounds for equal or less weight is always a plus. Your physics equation is slightly off as well, its Ek=1/2MV*2 where the Ek is energy KINETIC and the variable that has the greatest influence is velocity as it is an exponential relationship as opposed to weight which has a linear relationship. A smaller faster projectile will have more energy(kinetic) than a larger and slower one. More energy and more rounds, I don't see the downside to 9mm yet.
My point about internet garbage was not to discredit legitimate and unbiased factual reports. The point was that most people need to stop believing the BS hype others put on a specific calibre/make/model/colour etc of gear. Think for yourself, use some logic and rationalize what is being discussed. The data collected and used in the second link I provided is legitimate and accurate. Feel free to dispute it and try and explain how .40 or .45 are so much better than 9mm.
If you want to compare "friends" I can tell you I've shot with 4 LEO's who've downed people, 3 of whom have taught SEALs how to shoot. I've met 2 former JTF2 members, one who is currently contracting abroad, one Aussie SAS member, several British Army snipers, a USMC sniper, a former US Army Ranger and several others who have or are contracting privately. All of which have shot people, and none of which championed .40 or .45 as their go to calibre. Does that make me cooler than you?? I don't know, and I don't care. Facts are facts, take them for what they are or live in your fantasy world. On a side note, I have zero faith that SEALs killed OBL in May. Sorry but that story is beyond fishy to believe, but that's a topic for another thread.
TDC
