.408 CheyTac

Great info. Yep, the 408 is oversold and under delivers. Too bad because it has great potential. I am going to guess that with Barrett slinging the 416 Barrett at the forces and civi market, any interest in the 408 will quickly wane.

The comparison of the three cartridges ballistically should be enlightening to those who believe only a certain combo can achieve certain tasks. For Extreme range shooting, without the need to destroy something, MANY combos can now offer similar performance.

Since new high BC bullets are coming out to tackle the 1000yd BR competitions, you can now afford to do extreme range plinking. 7mm is probably the best balance of ballistics, costs, and recoil. The 6.5mm would be next. The big case 30's would follow but recoil and costs start to escalate. Finally, the newest 6mm bullets can and will do some interesting things at distance (custom barrel though so more costs).

For anyone that has a sub MOA 7RM or 300WM, the possibilities to shooting to the mile is quite reasonable.

As for time to learn, go ask IVO. I am sure he will post some info and pics of the fun shoot yesterday in another post.

You just need a scope with reliable adjustments and a lot of clicks. Good rangefinder and spotter doesn't hurt either.
Jerry
 
Here are some pictures from a two day shooting session with two different 408 Cheytac rifles, one is a PGW Timberwolf, the other is a EDM, we shot both 50 cal and 408 through the EDM.
Here are two groups that I shot with the 408 at 1890 yards
f3e6a62a.jpg

Below is a picture from the shooting line looking downrange at the invisible 4'x5' target at 1890 yards.
f3e6a61a.jpg

Here are the guns we were shooting, notice my personal 338 LM Timberwolf on the end w/suppressor.
f3e6a603.jpg

1890 yard target at 3x zoom shown below
f3e4fc8b.jpg


We shot these rifles for two full days, we ended up shooting over 500 rounds of 408 between three shooters most of those were loaded by TTI armory and had either TTI's propriety 408 projectiles or Lost Rivers 419 projectiles, by far the most accurate of the bunch was the LR 419's which I used to shoot the groups above, followed by TTI's. Since we conducted the test then TTI has someone other than Barne's turning their bullets for them. They found out that Barnes would change the ogive of the bullets to get all projectiles to the same weight, this was causing 2-3 rounds to group well but many wild fliers. Apparently the arrowdynamics of the projectiles being consistent is much more important than slight differences in the projectiles weight. I will be testing TTI's new projectiles next month.

Both the 408 Twolf & EDM were very accurate we could pound the rounds down range with ease at 1890 yards. Shooting my beloved 338 Twolf side by side with the 408's proved to put the 338 at a significant disadvantage. (I was shooting 300 SMK's out of the 338 at 2750 fps by the way) The 300's would seriously dent the 1/4" steel @ 1890 yards but the 408's & 50 cal blew through the steel no problem.

At 1000 yards then the 408 was penetrating our 1" steel target significantly deeper than the mighty 750 grain AMAX out of the 50 cal. To put it in perspective the 408 cratered the steel at 1000 yards as deep as my 338 craters it at 400 yards, and the 50 cal dented the steel less (did not crater at all).

Back to the 1890 yard target, I was able to hit the 4'x5' plate 4 out of 5 times with my 338 pretty easily, If I remember right we were shooting in a 8 mph crosswind most of the time, with heavy mirage throughout all of day 1. I say this because the mirage hurt our shooting more than the wind because it limited our ability to see impacts (dust kick up). With the 408 you could easily put every round through the steel and as you can see the groups were very good too.
 
Last edited:
Very impressive. What was the velocity for the 408?

I think you need a longer barrel on that 338. Looks like the 408 had barrels of 30" or longer. There have been a few 338 TW built on 32" and longer barrels that report pushing 300grMK at 3000fps and above.

That would even things out a bit.
Jerry
 
Here is a picture of me shooting my 338 at 1700 yards a few weeks prior to our 408 session.
f5102222.jpg

If you can't see it in the picture below my friend is shooting his AI 338LM, awesome rifle! but I like my twolf better. ;)
f510224a.jpg

And here is a picture of my Twolf 338 with AWC suppressor at the local range.
f5102229.jpg


After we got done shooting the 408's I let everyone shoot my HK MP5.
f3e4fcb4.jpg


I have been waiting a long time for PGW to finish building my 408 Twolf, it is supposed to be here by the end of May, I can't wait to get it!
 
Mysticplayer
The 408 Twolf had a 30" barrel on it, the EDM has a 35" barrel on it :eek:
You are right if I had a longer barrel than 26" on my 338 then I would be able to do a bit better but my 338 weighs 17 lbs all done up and I want to keep it man portable the 408 twolf weighed about 22-23 lbs and the EDM weight like 40 lbs but was very comfortable to shoot.

I have the velocity numbers in my log book at home, but I know that the LR 419's from TTI were loaded very like shooting around 2700 fps only. We had some handloaded LR 419's that shot just as accurately that were going 2950 fps.

I have read Dean's article on SP.com already, I spoke with Dean and he said that Cheytac was trying to steel his training techniques and he didn't like the management so he high tailed it out of there. I think his upset with them is more over these issues than any lack of performance because even at the slow velocity of 2700 fps the 408 did much better than the 338 LM.
 
More awesome pics. Yes, the camo does work.

I just can never figure out why anyone will design 'working' guns that you need a crane to carry. Also, being so long that you couldn't fit it in a transport or a window. A rifle is of no use if it kills/injures those trying to use it.

35" barrel. Again, more scewing of the results. Improves ballistics tremendously but is that a system that would be accepted for field use?????

What happens when the system only has a 26" barrel?

SR90, you must be a very strong guy because I have several rifles in this weight range for BENCH, no walkie, close to truck shooting. Trying to hump a rifle this heavy over hill and dale would be a serious chore. I tried one hunting trip, didn't like it.

10 to 12lbs with scope, bipod ready to go would be my idea of useable load in a 338. For a 308, I would even look at 8 to 9lbs as plenty doable and durable.

Any idea how many shots a tactical/sniper rifle has to make in a row without overheating? Always thought one shot, one hit. Not suppressive fire.

Sorry for the #####. Just an ongoing peeve of mine. Don't understand how an assault rifle for the average soldier can weigh 7lbs, be made from alum alloy and plastic, and survive getting beat on and sustained auto fire but a sniper rifle needs to weigh 2.5 times as much, be made of blocks of steel to take two to three shots? Isn't the job already hard enough?

The 408 does show very good ballistics as would the 50BMG but at portable rifle weights, recoil would be horrendous in either cartridge. The 338 Lapua is getting to the max that I think someone could sustain accurate fire with in a LIGHT rifle.

Love those suppressors. Wish they were legal up here.

All we need now is to have the Lapua adopted as an official NATO rd and the engineers will be coming out with new specialty bullets which will bring the penetration and expansion characteristics inline with the 408/416/50BMG.

At least for targets a soldier would be asked to remove.

Jerry
 
Mystic,
I agree on rifle weight, I set my 338 up as light as I possibly could, but it weighs less than the M40A3 sniper rifles so I am very happy with the weight. The velocity out of the 35" barrel was not that much great than shooting the same load out of the 408 Twolf, most likely because the Twolf has a much tighter chamber. 30" is the minimum I would use on a 408 or 50 cal otherwise you will be giving up too much ballistic performance. i am putting a 32" on my 408 and it will weigh around 23 lbs all set up. Shooting the 22 lb Twolf was quite painful actually, it was bearable but the recoil was pretty hard, so I definitely would not want to have a 408 that weighed less than that at least not if I planned on shooting it much.

The weight issue has plagued me for a long time, I have shot many game animals with my 338 and it is pretty heavy, especially in the mountains, in the flat open plains I can carry it all day though. Ideally you would just have two rifles a light weight hunter and a tactical rifle.

We shot between 5-10 shots slow fire then we would let the weapons cool for 10-15 minutes.
 
SR90, not an easy problem to solve. I think the Europeans and Barrett have the right idea using bullpups. You need the barrel length to gain benefits from these big cases and the bullpup layout keeps OAL reasonable.

Trying to sneak a 35" barreled extra long actioned 25lbs rifle just seems like a very badly designed tool to arm the troops with. Wouldn't they just prefer to carry a Browning MG and a tripod????

We have 14" barreled service rifles which reduces the ammos effectiveness. Then we design 5 ft long rifles that only Hulk Hogan or the Terminator can carry. Who thinks this stuff up anyways????

Muzzle brakes and/or suppressors are the only options to help with recoil management. With these heavy slugs, the shooter still pays a high price in abuse. The other solution is just make the rifle heavy - not a very good one as a sniper rifle is carried alot, shot little.

Except for anti material end uses, a different calibre would increase LR viability. The 7mm would give you identical ballistics as the 338/408/50BMG and would certainly provide enough stopping power for soft targets. Barrel life would be higher but so would performance. Recoil is way down and you could build very effective 9lb rifles that anyone could tolerate and carry. Ammo is pretty light too.

Even the 300WM would be a better choice. In service, but no one seems to be too overly excited about expanding its use. WSM's???? Maybe the forces like the bigger better idea - don't know.

At which point we are right back to 25 to 30lbs 50BMG semi Barretts...

Had the chance to see a SAKO TRG in 338LM shoot on the weekend. Even with 'tactical' rings/ bases and a Nightforce scope, the rifle was about 11 to 12lbs. With a muzzle brake, recoil was still very firm but it did sustain very accurate fire to a mile even after 10+rds in a row. That leaves you with at least 5lbs for extra ammo and kit. Significant.

Just read an article on a Stoner/Knight Armament AR10 for the US Navy (I think). Sub MOA to 1000yds and 10lbs. I guess there is still hope.

Jerry
 
I do not agree with your view on the smaller cartridges being comparable to the 338LM, 408CT, 50. Smaller calibers might look good on paper but the biggest problems shooting past 1200 yards is being able to see your impacts, I have a friend who shoots a 30 378 (with 200 grain bullets) and it makes the trip and makes it with a significantly flatter trajectory than my 338 LM but the problem is the bullets are too small and they don't kick up dirt or ring the steel much past 1300 yards. It is a great cartridge but if you cannot tell where your rounds are landing that in itself is a HUGE detriment for shooting lighter bullets. Shooting the 300 SMK's is much easier to spot at 1 mile which I feel is the 338 LM's max limit. However the 408 CT & the 50 cal hit so hard it is very easy to spot impacts.

My friend has been very agrivated many times because he cannot see what is happening, not even with a high end Swarovski spotting scope.

If you cannot see what you are doing you downrange you cannot become proficient at it, so on paper smaller calibers might look appealing but the real world is different.

In fact we were going to set up a video camera on a wireless network and view the target at the shooting line via a laptop to overcome this problem.

Under 1200 yards then yes I think you would be well suited with a 7mm or 300 win mag in a lighter package.
 
SR90, you will get no argument from me that bigger bullet make bigger splatts on impact.

However, had a very nice day shooting out to 1400m and beyond with a 7mm (162gr Amax) and a 308 (220gr MK)and had no issue spotting my shots through the scope at 10X and 12X. I guess it depends on the surface you shoot into.

My hill is quite sandy/dusty so you get good bullet dust on impact. hitting boulders also throws up a nice white puff. Shooting into grass would be much more difficult to spot. The terrain in your pics is very similar to mine so you should be able to pick up dust at impact reasonably well.

That really big sheet of steel your were pounding shows up splats really well. I guess we can't do much if the bullet goes that far off target :)

Jerry
 
Last edited:
Yes we have powder dust all over the ground here too, but if the ground is damp from a recent rainfall, or if the mirage is moderate to heavy (which it is 75% of the time) then it really hurts the visibility.

However we did discover that on a really hot day if you wait for a cloud (if there are any) to block the sun then you can see the target area great! It was quite amazing the first time we noticed this. Depending on the conditions, then beyond around 1400 yards it starts to become impossible to see impacts on steel. :(

The cloud technique is great and I use it all the time now. Unless there isn't any of course then I just bite my lip and shoot.
 
Yup it is a good size piece of steel, however at 1900 yards it is equivalent to shooting a 2.5"x3.15" target at 100 yards which is approximately the size of a persons palm. :D

The canadian sniper trials 1800 yard requirement stated that the rifle must be capable of harassing fire on two soldiers, so if two soldiers were standing side by side then they would be larger than our steel sheet. So in that sense the target is perfect for that range. :D
 
Any chance of making a gong swing? That ensures you will see impacts even if you can't see the actual splat.

I love the idea of a wireless camera. We had that at a fun shoot I was at last year. Unfortunately, the shooters couldn't use it but it did help with scoring.

When that bullet cracks nearby, I don't think any two soldiers will be close to each other for long.

You have a great spot to shoot. Keep us up to date on any developments.

Where abouts are you?
Jerry
 
I'm in SLC Utah, we shoot out by Utah lake. The gong is a good idea we have a 30" one but we don't have one that is bigger than that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom