.410 reloads actually work!!

kjohn

kjohn

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Some of you may recall my blurb about cutting down 3" plastic hulls, and reloading with Trail Boss and 2 .395 balls. Well, Deaner and I went out today to try out the new Workhorse clay thrower. I took a plastic jug out about 25 feet and took a few pokes at it with the .410 reloads I had made up. I used a little CBC single shot. They actually stayed close together and made nice holes about an inch apart, sort of where I was aiming. Tough to really "aim" with just a front bead. I was amazed.

I might have to rig some sort of rear sight on it. :)
 
I would like to try that load with some .444 marlin brass I converted for .410. Could you list the wad column and amount of trail boss? Don't worry I wont sue you if I screw things up.

Darryl
 
madtrapper143 said:
I would like to try that load with some .444 marlin brass I converted for .410. Could you list the wad column and amount of trail boss? Don't worry I wont sue you if I screw things up.

Darryl
Click to expand...

No problem. 8gr. of Trail Boss, 1 of .125" cardboard wad, 1 of 1/2" fiber wad, 2 .396 balls cast from WW in a LEE mold, 1 of .125" cardboard wad, then roll crimped. I can't tell you the length offhand, but I cut the hulls to a length that worked good for the roll crimp. The wads are both Ballistic products. I tried cutting wads from cardboard, but the hole punch I have is a wee bit too big for a decent fit. I used Trail Boss because it is fast and forgiving.

My original post is here: https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/2120547-Loading-410-project

It is best to read the whole thing, as some updates and improvements, as well as some good ideas from others are listed. In the end, I have it down pat now, relatively simple. The only catch was to buy a roll crimper, which works good. I looked at a factory Federal Upland 3" load and noticed that the top wad doesn't even come up to the rolled in part, so all is good. The wads fit in nice and tight, so no worries about the guts all rolling out.

The little roll crimper could be made if someone had a nice lathe. Ideally, one would need a factory one to copy. I don't have those tools, so I bought one. It was close to $50, but what's that when a guy is on a mission. :p

I can measure a hull and post it tomorrow, if you like.

Now, instead of watching those little fellers shoot off my .410 ammo at nearly $1 a shot, I figure about $.06, for a primer, $.05 for powder, and $.10 for wads, . maybe around two bits or less a shot looks much better. :)
 
I guess there is minimal wad pressure. I have read that it is not good to crush the little trail boss cheerios. How much do two .396 cast balls weigh? I may substitute 000 buck as I don't have the proper mold.

Darryl
 
Trail Boss: I take exception with the statement that "Trail Boss is fast and forgiving". I've used a few #'s of TB, in pistol caliber cartridges for shooting Cowboy Action, and fast and forgiving aren't among the descriptors I'd use to describe this powder.

It is a bulky powder, and when loading with a progressive press it is easy to see a double charged case. IOW, even at low charge weights it will fill the case more than other powders, such as Bullseye. This is a good thing, making it a safer choice. It is a bit more expensive to use, a 1# container only has 9 oz of powder in it.

Another characteristic is that for the pressure it has, TB yields a fairly low velocity. Full power hunting loads have enough pressure to seal the chamber, but when the powder charge is reduced for target loads or Cowboy loads, one of the issues is that below a certain pressure, the brass case does a poor job of sealing the chamber, cases come out sooty, and the gun gets dirty. Good ammunition should seal the chamber. The pressure curve for TB is characterised with a high peak pressure of short duration. This short (relative to other powders) duration pressure curve isn't long enough to give high velocities. IOW, it has finished burning before it can really push the bullet out of the barrel. In comparison, Black Powder has a low pressure peak and is still burning as the bullet leaves the barrel.

One of the characteristics of TB that makes it unsuitable for normal shotgun loads is that it does not work well if compressed. It is fluffy, easily compressed, and that changes it's burn rate. Pressures are high and unpredictable.

Your load has 8 gr of TB and the 2 balls weigh 185 grains, and if you add the wads, your total projectile weight is probably over 200 grains. My WAG at the pressure of your load would be 25,000 psi.

That would be more pressure than I'd be comfortable with.

Your reloading recipe of using a nitro, fiber, 2 balls (small enough to go through a choke), card wad and roll crimp is sound reloading practice, IMO. However I feel your choice of powder could be better.

Without doing much research, I lean towards Unique, that would be the fastest powder I'd use. As far as something I'd recommend, perhaps 2400, or even Black Powder.

https://smallboreshotgun.com/reloading-410-slugs/40-caliber-410-pumpkin-ball-round/

https://forum.castbulletassoc.org/thread/several-410-loading-questions/

Those were two sites with some info, your are pointed in the right direction, perhaps a bit more research required.
 
A freshly cut hull is 2.32", which works out nicely with the bulk of the powder, wads, and balls.

Would you be able to measure the precise dimensions of the roll crimper? My lathe sits idle most days ;-).

I'll try. I didn't have time today. It should be a fairly easy build. A hole needs to be drilled to tap in a pin that actually does the crimp, and a little bit of shaft to chuck in a drill.
 
nitro-express: I will do some more investigating re: powder. I said TB is "fast and forgiving" in the sense of reloading brass rifle shells, not pistol. I didn't crush the powder, just settled the first wad on the charge. I take your advice and observations seriously, and am grateful for your willingness to share your thoughts and experience. I have lots of other powders to try, Unique, 700X, Red Dot, etc. I will fire these rounds I've made in my Lee Enfield 3" conversion instead of the .410 single.

Edit: I don't use a powder measure for loading. I weight each charge for these rounds and all my rifle loading. I use a Lee Progressive for 9mm. I can visually check each round as it comes around.
 
legi0n said:
Unique is too fast for 410
having said that I'm using it for subsonic 1/3oz loads in brass cases
Click to expand...

I've done a bit more researching and IMO you are correct, Unique is too fast.

Lyman had a slug mold, about 50 years ago, and from the data I have, IMR 4227 was the powder of choice.

About a year or so ago I was looking to load some 12 ga Cowboy ammo. IOW, I wanted to load about 3/4 to 7/8 oz of shot and get no more than 100 fps. For our game, you don't need much to slap a steel plate at 10 yards. I've played at outlaw reloading enough to come to the conclusion that for the most part I want to follow published data. To my way of thinking, Trail Boss, with it's high pressure low velocity characteristic may be a good candidate, to that end I contacted Hodgdon, and to make a long story short, they positively suggested against it.

A bit messy, Black Powder is a good candidate for experiments like this. It has a low peak pressure that does not climb in pressure with an overload like smokeless powder does. Pressure doe not drop appreciably with a lighter load either, assuming you follow the no air space rule. That being said, the clean-up of that corrosive junk has kept me from using it much.
 
Just did a survey of my powder. I have 2400 and IMR4227, as well as some others in that burn rate area. I will do some more investigating. I have a box of MAG TECH .410 brass.

Keep your thoughts coming.
 
h110 is my favorite for 410 loads. 2400 is nice as well when used in bass cases

My favorite load was 14gr h110 under 3 38-40 bullets over a cardboard wad and under one too, crimped by folding the factory crimp back in.

3" winchester hull 3x 180gr .401" over 14gr h110.
It would shoot a 3" triangle at 20 yards
 
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With the availability of Mag-Tech brass, they would be my first choice. One of the issues is that 444 Marlin brass cases are meant for far greater pressure than 410 shotgun ammunition.

So: You'd think that would be a good thing, but 410 shotgun brass is thin, it will seal the chamber. 444 Marlin brass may not. I wish I had some hands on experience with brass shells in the 410, but I do not. I've handloaded and compared 44-40 and 45 Colt revolvers and the thin brass of the 44-40 seals nicely with target (Cowboy) loads, whereas the thicker brass of the 45 Colt does not. 44-40 brass comes out of the chamber clean, 45 Colt does not. 44 Rem Mag is even worse, it is meant for high pressure and with target (Cowboy) loads, the cases come out dirty.

In a handgun, which is a dirty pig of a thing at the best of times, not a particularly serious concern. However, when fired in a rifle like the '73 Winchester, the blowback will eventually start to gum up the works. In a shotgun, your face is pretty close to the breach, I wouldn't want any leakage or blowback. A shotgun like an 870, you are shielded, in a break action single shot, not as much.

On the other hand, I've seem some destruction tests run on 410's, they seem to thrive on abuse.

Nitro
 
I made bras 410 cases for my Lee Enfield 410 using blown out 303 cases. Took a couple of steps. Cases must be annealed, first.

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