.416 Ruger RSM

Boomer said:
Perhaps, but I've got 500 .375 Ultra cases, and at any one time 350 - 400 are loaded in a variety of bullet weights and styles. The cost of doing this with a .416 Rigby is beyond my reach. Neither did I find that the Norma brass would last much more that 5 loadings, by which time the primer pockets had expanded. Because I was carrying my rifle almost every day, year round, the chances of loosing a cartridge here and there was always present. I am much happier with the cost of Ultra brass.
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Boomer,
There is quite a difference between the Rigby at 40,000 PSI and most everything including your Ultramags at 60,000 plus. I'm not loading .416 Weatherby level loads though, then all bets would be off on case life. As it is the primer pockets are as tight as the day they were new. The only cases that I lose are cartridge collectors at the range asking for a sample.
On an unrelated note what barrel life is expected out of the .375 Ultra? It's only taken 14 months and 1700 rounds to shoot .120" out of the throat of my little H&H. At the current rate I'd estimate that that pipe is 2/3s of the way to being a jack handle or tomato stake. That doesn't bother me much, as barrels are cheap and I have a spare .375 now.
 
MyRam,
I wasn't suggesting you buy a CZ instead of a Ruger, you will have to go with what you like the most. I liked just about everything about the Ruger better, except the weight and mag capacity. I'm really curious about the Capriva as well.
I heard yesterday that Dakota was back up and running. If that's true it might be another option for you. Those things are nice.

Dogleg
 
BigUglyMan said:
I've got a RSM in 416 Rigby. I haven't shot it a ton but there were no issues with the stock. It does have one cross bolt and that funny 45 degree screw and recoil hanger as part of it. I believe the cracked stocks were with the regular M77s that were reworked to take long calibers liek the 375 H&H (Dave Scovill of Rifle magazine had a 300 reworked to take the 375 IIRC and it cracked a stock until a new stock was fitted with crossbolts). I had mine bedded by HWSNBN but that was because I'm a rifle crank. He also supplied me with brass and dies. Should be even more reasonable now that he imports from Midway.

A friend that went on safari with me also has a RSM in 416 and has had it for many years with no problems. My load was a 350 gr Barnes X ahead of 101 gr of H4831SC. Should give somewhere on the order of 2600 FPS though I haven't chrono'd it yet. Shoots well sub MOA and recoils like nothing. Doug was using a stout load with 300 gr Barnes X. It was a bit more unpleasant, btu I shot it off the bench to sight it in and fired four shots without a shoulder pad (I usually use one when test firing any heavy recoiling rifle) with no ill effects. Mine wears a 1.5-5x Leupold with a heavy duplex in Ruger rings. Dougs has a Tasco 1-4x in 30mm Ruger Rings (I believe). Mine doesn't foul inordinately and feeds perfectly. I like that I can load the mag, slip a round into the chamber and close the bolt on a loaded round (yes, I know some of you get right nervy about people walking with a loaded rifle, but I think the paranoia is unwarranted).

I don't think you could go wrong with a RSM. My PH in Africa just bought one in 458 Lott as a backup rifle for guiding clients for Buffalo. I can't give a more ringing endorsement.
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I'm glad to hear that you and your buddy have had no stock cracking problems. It seems crazy to me that Ruger would sell a $2000 rifle that has such issues, but if you check www.accuratereloading.com and do a search on the Ruger RSM in the African Hunting forum there is a few threads discusing all the problems and Rugers warranty etc. , and some of those guys make a lot of safaris and/or are PHs. But I am glad to here some positive reports as well. What do you think of the weight? Have you handled the CZs?
Were you hunting dangerous game or plains game? I thought the 400gn bullet was kind of standard for dangerous game, although your loads would flatten out the trajectory quite a bit if I guy was doing both.
 
Dogleg said:
MyRam,
I wasn't suggesting you buy a CZ instead of a Ruger, you will have to go with what you like the most. I liked just about everything about the Ruger better, except the weight and mag capacity. I'm really curious about the Capriva as well.
I heard yesterday that Dakota was back up and running. If that's true it might be another option for you. Those things are nice.

Dogleg
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As long as I'm in the planning/daydreaming phase I'm willing to look at all options. What sort of prep work have your CZs recieved if any? Bedding? triggers?
That is great news about Dakota if that's true. I was at the RMEF confrence in Reno in 1999 I think and they had a booth there. Those rifles are the stuff of wet dreams. But at $4500us plus wet dreams are as close as I will probably get. Unless of course someone at this site has one for sale a bargin basement prices. :D
 
I had a 416 Chatfield-Taylor built on a 98 Mauser by Bevan King about 20 years ago. It was a very accurate rifle, and we shot 350 gr and 400 gr Barnes soft points in it.

Barnes had not made 350 gr bullets at that time, but they offered to make 500 on special order. They were great, to say the least, for tipping over moose and bear. :D

The rifle cost less than $700 to build, not counting the action, which I already had, and included sights and an extra recoil lug on the barrel. The stock was a Bell and Carlson with the huge butt and recoil pad that soaked up recoil like a sponge. It was no problem at all to shoot forty rounds in an afternoon.

That was in '85 or '86. You could build one easily for less than twice that price today. You don't need match grade barrels for a rifle that is primarily used at less than 200 yards. :cool:

Ted
 
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My_Ram said:
As long as I'm in the planning/daydreaming phase I'm willing to look at all options. What sort of prep work have your CZs recieved if any? Bedding? triggers?
That is great news about Dakota if that's true. I was at the RMEF confrence in Reno in 1999 I think and they had a booth there. Those rifles are the stuff of wet dreams. But at $4500us plus wet dreams are as close as I will probably get. Unless of course someone at this site has one for sale a bargin basement prices. :D
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Mine got bedding and pillars, cross-bolts, changed out recoil pads to correct LOP and a trigger adjustment. All in all about the same as every other rifle I own except for the cross-bolts. I also polished the actions a bit. On the .375 I changed to a Gentry 3 position M70 style safety. I have a couple Wisner Rigby pocket floor plates ordered to get the total capacities up to 5 shots on the Rigby and 7 on the .375. For some reason the thought of a seven shot H&H makes me grin.:D I may build something on that action when the barrel pukes.
 
Dogleg said:
Mine got bedding and pillars, cross-bolts, changed out recoil pads to correct LOP and a trigger adjustment. All in all about the same as every other rifle I own except for the cross-bolts. I also polished the actions a bit. On the .375 I changed to a Gentry 3 position M70 style safety. I have a couple Wisner Rigby pocket floor plates ordered to get the total capacities up to 5 shots on the Rigby and 7 on the .375. For some reason the thought of a seven shot H&H makes me grin.:D I may build something on that action when the barrel pukes.
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Sounds like what I was thinking of, did you do the work yourself or can you pass on your gunsmiths name. Could you estimate what that preperation would cost?
Let's see seven rounds of 300gn ammo that is about 2100 gns of serious fire power. Even if you didn't hit the vitals that much lead would pin them down from weight alone, then you could finish them with your pocket knife. :D Sounds like a great set up.
 
Dogleg said:
Boomer,
There is quite a difference between the Rigby at 40,000 PSI and most everything including your Ultramags at 60,000 plus. I'm not loading .416 Weatherby level loads though, then all bets would be off on case life. As it is the primer pockets are as tight as the day they were new. The only cases that I lose are cartridge collectors at the range asking for a sample.
On an unrelated note what barrel life is expected out of the .375 Ultra? It's only taken 14 months and 1700 rounds to shoot .120" out of the throat of my little H&H. At the current rate I'd estimate that that pipe is 2/3s of the way to being a jack handle or tomato stake. That doesn't bother me much, as barrels are cheap and I have a spare .375 now.
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Good question.

I am not sure yet what the barrel life of the Ultra will be. I don't have a bore scope, so I cannot visually determine if the throat is beginning to fail, although accuracy remains good. My round count is well over 1000.

I down load most of my loads so that 2600 is my highest velocity with any bullet weight of 300 grs or under, unless I have a specific test I wish to conduct. The 380's I load to 2300, which is 2 grs below a sticky bolt, so I am sure that throat erosion is not as severe as it could be, although I must concede I am running up to 20 grs more powder than the .375 H&H.

When I was running my charge stopping drills (remember the Jeep pulling the pail video?) the barrel was heated up pretty good after 4 rounds of rapid fire, but I was dunking it in a slew to minimize the heating. Your idea of having a spare barrel ready to install is sound, and takes me a step closer to converting my 602 to a switch barrel.
 
My Ram -

My 602 is pretty much a full custom rig, only the action and trigger are original, and the cost is somewhere in the mid 4's, although it took some 5 years to get it to where I am really happy with it. It remains a work in progress.
 
Boomer said:
Your idea of having a spare barrel ready to install is sound, and takes me a step closer to converting my 602 to a switch barrel.
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Actually it isn't a spare barrel that I have, but a spare rifle. I'll have to make some decisions about a new barrel versus a set back and rechamber on this one. Either way I'm thinking about a custom reamer or separate throater to get away from that long 300 grain roundnose throating. It doesn't matter to me if I can chamber all factory ammo or not and at least I wouldn't be starting out with "pre-erosion". I did the same thing with my last STW chamber, setting it up for a deep seated 140 grain TSX instead of 175 grainers that nobody uses. I'm betting that it doubles the accuracy life, before I run out of magazine length. The standard throat is like buying used tires, they're half gone before you start so why bother?
 
With the performance of the light weight X bullets, you should get away with the short throat, particularly if you move the .375 into the plains game rifle category, and intend to use the .416 for buff and other nasty stuff. The pitfall of this approach is that, as you know, you'll end up using the .416 for everything, and end up wondering what the .375 is for.

As for me, the 380 gr Rhino bullet has become far and away my favorite, so I need the longish throat. But you do have me wondering now, and I will take some measurements to determine if the barrel has indeed headed south.
 
Boomer,
The TSX is what I have in mind. It doesn't mean that I can't use the roundnose bullets though, just that they have to be seated deeper. Most of my .375 loads aren't compressed anyway, and I never crimp.
Those big 380 grain bullets start to tramp on original .404 Jeffrey territory even with the little H&H. Maybe the question is "What's the .416 for?";) I can always justify the .375s for duikers and squirrels.
I hope to shoot a couple buffalo, a giraffe and eland for big stuff this summer and will try to use both calibers. TSXs in both BTW, but I will load a few solids for the heck of it.
 
I forgot to add that my RSM got a new recoil pad as well. Added a bit to the LOP which was needed for gangly old me, but also replaced that factory Goodyear (I'm not kidding either!) pad.

I was only hunting plains game and the only animal that soaked up a bullet that didn't exit was my kudu which I tool quartering on and a back up shot at a gemsbok that I took on a very sharp quartering away shot. We didn't recover the bullet so it was probably in there somewhere and was missed by the skinners. I shot everything with the 416 even up to my springbok taken at a lasered 257 meters (281 yards). Two broadside shots exited on blue wildebeest, one on my gemsbok, one on my impala, quartering on with the springbok, and broadside on my blesbok.

If I go back for buffalo (OK, OK, when I go back for buffalo) I'll likely try the Barnes 400 gr Banded Solids and 400 gr X Bullets or possibly 400 gr Swifts, if I can get them to shoot to the same point of impact.

As a side note, I should have crimped my bullets in the 416. After they rode in the mag through a couple or three shots you could see them sinking deeper into the case. They went from having the whole cannelure exposed to having none of it exposed after being in the mag for three shots. I rotated new ones into the bottom of the mag to shoot the ones that had been in there a while, when it was feasible to do so.

What's the mag capacity of the CZ550? And will it's extractor jump the case rim? I handled Back40Sniper's Brno 602 a couple of times while I was there. The only thing I didn't like about it is that the safety is backwards and the sling swivel is on the stock, where I think it should not be for a hard recoiling rifle. I'm not big on using a sling. I know, Col Cooper is going to haunt me now. I use them from time to time but I don't think that a sling has any place on a rifle used for hunting in thick bush. The sling will end up tangled or caught on thorns and, in the case of dangerous game, it may cost you if the rifle gets hung up when you try to mount it quickly. Also the habit would be to sling the rifle over your shoulder while walking which could cost you a shot at suddenly appearing game. I know all the benefits, but a rifle really does belong in your hands if it is going to be employed properly.
 
BigUglyMan,
The CZs vary a bit in magazine capacity. Some of the .416s will take 4 down and a lot of them are 3 1/2. The .375 s will take 5 down like nothing and some will take 6. Thats where the Wisner floorplate comes in, it gives an extra 1/8" to the ones that almost take the extra cartridge.
The claw will jump the rim on both of mine, I wouldn't own a rifle that didn't. If it doesn't, fix it. Same goes for the Mausers, M70s and any other CRF. Not being able to jump the rim is bad design and I don't care if Mauser haunts me for saying it.
The backwards safety on the 602 was an abortion, but they don't make them like that anymore. Haven't for a long time. For that matter they don't make the 602 either.
One of my swivel studs has been changed to a barrel-band, and one is in the original location. For me it doesn't make any difference, but the factory fixed and sharp swivels had to go. I do use a tight sling on occasion and the barrel mount won't work for that. Not that I expect to shoot the .416 that way, anyway. The stock design would be better suited to irons, but really helps roll with the punches. I'm going to check out a Bavarian stock.
When is the buffalo hunt going to happen?:D
 
Dogleg said:
BigUglyMan,
The CZs vary a bit in magazine capacity. Some of the .416s will take 4 down and a lot of them are 3 1/2. The .375 s will take 5 down like nothing and some will take 6. Thats where the Wisner floorplate comes in, it gives an extra 1/8" to the ones that almost take the extra cartridge.
The claw will jump the rim on both of mine, I wouldn't own a rifle that didn't. If it doesn't, fix it. Same goes for the Mausers, M70s and any other CRF. Not being able to jump the rim is bad design and I don't care if Mauser haunts me for saying it.
The backwards safety on the 602 was an abortion, but they don't make them like that anymore. Haven't for a long time. For that matter they don't make the 602 either.
One of my swivel studs has been changed to a barrel-band, and one is in the original location. For me it doesn't make any difference, but the factory fixed and sharp swivels had to go. I do use a tight sling on occasion and the barrel mount won't work for that. Not that I expect to shoot the .416 that way, anyway. The stock design would be better suited to irons, but really helps roll with the punches. I'm going to check out a Bavarian stock.
When is the buffalo hunt going to happen?:D
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My 602 Ultra will accept 5 rounds of .375 Ultra in the magazine, but the first round is difficult to cycle, so I've got in the habit of loading 4. The 602's safety an abortion??!!:eek: I keep tellin guys - just think of a M-94 and #### to fire, #### to fire, #### to fire . . . there now you've got it.:D
 
Boomer said:
My 602 Ultra will accept 5 rounds of .375 Ultra in the magazine, but the first round is difficult to cycle, so I've got in the habit of loading 4. The 602's safety an abortion??!!:eek: I keep tellin guys - just think of a M-94 and #### to fire, #### to fire, #### to fire . . . there now you've got it.:D
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It sounds like you have a candidate for a Wisner floorplate as well. He's supposed to notify me when the next production run is ready, but maybe I'll check in.
I prefer the "Go AHEAD and shoot, Go AHEAD and shoot method" on safeties.:p Truth to be told, I'll never be completely comfortable with anything other than a M70 3 position safety. Locking the striker is a good thing.
 
Dogleg said:
It sounds like you have a candidate for a Wisner floorplate as well. He's supposed to notify me when the next production run is ready, but maybe I'll check in.
I prefer the "Go AHEAD and shoot, Go AHEAD and shoot method" on safeties.:p Truth to be told, I'll never be completely comfortable with anything other than a M70 3 position safety. Locking the striker is a good thing.
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I might gain a round with the Wisner, but for $65 US, as long as the rifle feeds well, that is more important to me than if it has 4 rounds or 5.

Truth be told I seldom use the safety, only in the moments immediately prior to a shot, other wise I carry mag full chamber empty. I carried a M-70 in Tanzania and found the safety awkward with the scope bell so tight to it, so I just lifted the bolt handle. This would of been no issue had the scope been mounted where it belongs ahead of the receiver.:cool:
 
Boomer said:
I might gain a round with the Wisner, but for $65 US, as long as the rifle feeds well, that is more important to me than if it has 4 rounds or 5.

Truth be told I seldom use the safety, only in the moments immediately prior to a shot, other wise I carry mag full chamber empty. I carried a M-70 in Tanzania and found the safety awkward with the scope bell so tight to it, so I just lifted the bolt handle. This would of been no issue had the scope been mounted where it belongs ahead of the receiver.:cool:
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Ah, a Cooper disciple, that explains so much.:p 65 bucks for a floorplate doesn't amount to much when decent .416 bullets start there for 50. With the Rigby the difference is between 3 rounds and 4 with an empty chamber carry. 3 seems a little light for a buffalo gun, somehow. Didn't your own buffalo end up with six holes in it, and involve shooting a couple of guns dry? Sounds like "the more (ammo) the merrier" to me.:D
 
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Dogleg said:
Ah, a Cooper disciple, that explains so much.:p 65 bucks for a floorplate doesn't amount to much when decent .416 bullets start there for 50. With the Rigby the difference is between 3 rounds and 4 with an empty chamber carry. 3 seems a little light for a buffalo gun, somehow. Didn't your own buffalo end up with six holes in it, and involve shooting a couple of guns dry? Sounds like "the more (ammo) the merrier" to me.:D
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I am, but He did not share my enthusiasm for the .375, nor I his for the .350 Remington.

I agree 3 rounds isn't enough, and my complaint about the price of the floorplate was lame in view of a rifle costing over $4K. Perhaps the correct answer is a custom box which will hold 5 or 6.
 
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