44 mag question

Denich

Denich

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Burlington, ON
This is going to be my first time reloading, after taking a course from a local guy (great intro for newbies)

I do have a little problem though. Currently i have Lyman and Speer reloading manual and they list several types of bullets:

Speer:

240 gr LSWC
240 gr Jacketed

Lyman:

240 gr JHP
240 gr JHC
240 gr cast (linotype)
245 Gr cast (linotype)


The bullets i'm using are the Frontier 245 gr CMJ FP. I weighted about 20 of them and they come up anywhere between 240gr to 245gr with 242.5gr being the most common. I'm having a hard time doing a search because of all the abbreviations. Basically, the question is, which load data should i use??

If it matters, im planning on using 2400 powder and large pistol primers. Powder suggestions are also greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your help.
 
Just use the reloading data from the 240 grain bullets. It is close enough. Don't worry about the 2.5 grain difference. Just start with a lower power load and work up to what shoots the best. I don't reload for that caliber so I am not sure for recommending a powder.
 
Denich said:
This is going to be my first time reloading, after taking a course from a local guy (great intro for newbies)

I do have a little problem though. Currently i have Lyman and Speer reloading manual and they list several types of bullets:

Speer:

240 gr LSWC
240 gr Jacketed

Lyman:

240 gr JHP
240 gr JHC
240 gr cast (linotype)
245 Gr cast (linotype)


The bullets i'm using are the Frontier 245 gr CMJ FP. I weighted about 20 of them and they come up anywhere between 240gr to 245gr with 242.5gr being the most common. I'm having a hard time doing a search because of all the abbreviations. Basically, the question is, which load data should i use??

If it matters, im planning on using 2400 powder and large pistol primers. Powder suggestions are also greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your help.
Click to expand...

This is the problem in getting a "local guy" to show you how to reload.
He is at fault, for not telling you it doesn't matter two hoots in high hell, which one, or ones, of those bullets you use.
They will all take the same charge of powder.
 
Start low, Work up a load that shoots well in your gun, use the other bullets as a "reference" if your exact one is not listed.
Pay close attention to cases for signs of pressure.
 
I use WW231 for light loads in .44 Mag, anywhere from 6.0gr to 8.0gr works well under a 245gr Keith SWC in my Redhawk. For full power loads I use H110 with the same bullets.


Mark
 
Thanks everyone for replies.
I now have my first 36 homemade rounds :D

i loaded 12 of each to test, 18gr, 18.5 gr and 19gr of 2400 under 245 gr plated bullet with CCI large pistol primers. Right now its a stressful process and im writing down everything, including the die setup on the press. Once my ATT renews i'll test them and load the other 1k to that load :D

I need way more powder though. i was surprised to find out that a pound of 2400 will yield under 400 rounds. this is a fun proccess and i hope i dont blow myself up :D.

Time to put all that stuff away and have a celebratory friday beer :D
 
H4831 said:
This is the problem in getting a "local guy" to show you how to reload.
He is at fault, for not telling you it doesn't matter two hoots in high hell, which one, or ones, of those bullets you use.
They will all take the same charge of powder.
Click to expand...

And its your fault you can't read the OP's post properly.......

As long as the bullet weight is close, 10gr is close to me, and you start low you will be fine.

I went to use 2400 for my 500s&w with a 440gr bullet but the Max listed I could find was 350gr. So I estimated bases on the smaller weights of bullets to figure out a load.
 
Dear H4831,
Just remember that in BC (and then here on CGN where we are all neighbours, living just around the corner) you are the "Local Guy", so we should be rude to you and ignore your input.

Yes, I am the local guy who showed Denich how to reload. I have also given him some load data for the SIX 44 Mag firearms I chronographed, running from 4.2" barrels to 10.5" in handguns, and 20" in a rifle. I mentioned various powders, even stating that H110 and Win 296 are the same, also indicating why Reloading manuals sometimes have exactely the same load data for these two powders, and why it sometimes vary, mentined that Pistol Pro 300 will give highest velocity, etc.

Then I also suggested to all my "students" to get other oppinions, but at the same time to be very, very wary of people who give advice on the internet, including people like you and me, and only to trus printed load data in reputable Reloading manuals. I then also cautioned them to err on the safe side if the various manuals differ ( a good example is the load date for 9mmP, using Unique under a 124 or 125gr bullet). I also mention the difference between cast and swaged CMJ/TMJ bullets, plain lead and loads for jacketed bullets, monometal such as Barnes PB, etc. I also offered to help him chronograph his loads to get useful feedback.

But then what do I know? I am just the local guy, who has written and printed a book of more than 50 pages (30 000 words) on how to reload ammo (RSA Reloading Safe/Sensible Ammunitoin), and have some basic experience picked up over the last 30+ years, loading for 9mmP to 480 Ruger in handguns, and in rifle 223 Rem to 458 Lott. I was uninformed enough to succesfully make bullets for my 480 Ruger using 45 ACP and 308 Win cases (325-400gr, huge hollow points using inverted 185gr Berry bullets in 45 GAP and 45 ACP cases, make jacketed bullets for a 375 H&H using Burdan primed 223 Rem cases, etc, but then I am just an uninformed local guy. But you are welcome to come to my house, meet my wife and eat our food, and and see that there are some decent local guys.

Finally, Denich, you were a superb student, and I admire your eagerness to learn as much as possible! Well done!

RSA1
 
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Your choice of 2400 is a very good one. Not all powders are suitable for downloading to medium power. H110, W296 are only good for balls to the wall loads. The novelty of painful recoil wears thin pretty quick, as does the flinch and big group.

Hopefully one of your loads will be accurate and you can load a bunch.

Come back here if (when) you have more questions.
 
RSA1, then why didn't you just tell him that all those approximate same weight bullets could be loaded with the same charge of the same powder and save him his confusion?
Had he been so informed, he could have picked out any load of one of the bullets, then used the same charge in any other of the same weight bullets.
As you know, Elmer Keith designed the 44 magnum and his 240 grain designed bullet, with 22 grains of 2400. The OP's loads were so much below maximum of 22 grains of 2400, that there certainly was no danger in changing around the bullets.
 
Also, unless I am mis-reading the original post the bullets the OP is using are plated bullets not jacketed. If plated they should not be heavily crimped--and usually with 2400 powder a reasonably hard crimp is required for consistant ignition (in my experience). Plated bullets would be more suitable for mid-range loads. If bullets are indeed jacketed then have at it.
 
H4831 said:
RSA1, then why didn't you just tell him that all those approximate same weight bullets could be loaded with the same charge of the same powder and save him his confusion?
Had he been so informed, he could have picked out any load of one of the bullets, then used the same charge in any other of the same weight bullets.
As you know, Elmer Keith designed the 44 magnum and his 240 grain designed bullet, with 22 grains of 2400. The OP's loads were so much below maximum of 22 grains of 2400, that there certainly was no danger in changing around the bullets.
Click to expand...

Well first of all, it is impossible to cover everything in the course. The information provided was enough to get me started and not blow myself up. This course was designed as a starting point to reloading, not to turn me into an expert overnight; I will have questions. However, even now, a month after the course, RSA is helpful enough to provide me with answers, above and beyond of what i ask when i email him. He even offered the use of his basement and reloading bench for the weekend so i could do my loads and have a second pair of eyes to watch out for problems.

And as for "problem getting a local guy showing how to reload" comment, what other suggestions do you have for a new reloader who cant tell a seating die from an expanding die to get hands on experience and guidance to start reloading?
 
H4831 said:
This is the problem in getting a "local guy" to show you how to reload.
He is at fault, for not telling you it doesn't matter two hoots in high hell, which one, or ones, of those bullets you use.
They will all take the same charge of powder.
Click to expand...

H4831 said:
RSA1, then why didn't you just tell him that all those approximate same weight bullets could be loaded with the same charge of the same powder and save him his confusion?
Had he been so informed, he could have picked out any load of one of the bullets, then used the same charge in any other of the same weight bullets.
As you know, Elmer Keith designed the 44 magnum and his 240 grain designed bullet, with 22 grains of 2400. The OP's loads were so much below maximum of 22 grains of 2400, that there certainly was no danger in changing around the bullets.
Click to expand...

Further to the above, I have been erring on the side of caution (perhaps too far on the cautious fringe?), in that I have never loaded a 240gr plain lead bullet at max magnum levels - the reason is that every single one of my loading manuals recommends against having a plain lead bullet travel over 1000 fps, and none show a lead load for any velocity approaching Mach 1. So I am genuinely curious - are lead bullets loaded to .44 magnum (HOT) levels a viable alternative to having to use plated or jacketed bullets to avoid this purported leading issue? Or are we assuming something, like the use of a gas-checked bullet?

Wikipedia (the gold-standard source for quality information, I know) has this to say:

The most common use of gas checks is in the .44 Magnum and .357 Magnum, which were developed from non-magnum cartridges by shooters such as Elmer Keith. By loading the large capacity cases designed for black powder with large charges of smokeless powder, velocities well in excess of 1000 ft/s (300 m/s) were produced from handguns for the first time. At these velocities and pressures traditional soft lead bullets would quickly foul the barrel with lead deposits, so gas checked bullets were used in these experimental cartridges.[SUP][4][/SUP]

So am I being overly cautious? I'd of course like to clarify for my sake, but also for the OP's sake if there are indeed assumptions that have been made that he may not yet be aware of.

44Bore said:
Also, unless I am mis-reading the original post the bullets the OP is using are plated bullets not jacketed. If plated they should not be heavily crimped--and usually with 2400 powder a reasonably hard crimp is required for consistant ignition (in my experience). Plated bullets would be more suitable for mid-range loads. If bullets are indeed jacketed then have at it.
Click to expand...

I too have been hesitant to run plated bullets at max-magnum velocities, opting instead for medium to warm loads when using plated. Too cautious?
 
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As far as the 44 Mag is concerned, Elmer designed, as a basis, the Lyman # 429421 which was a 250gr plain base semi wad cutter. They were cast medium to hard, 1 - 16 or harder and he found gas checks weren't need if properly cast, sized and lubricated as they gave no leading. There were two slight variations of this bullet he also designed, the # 429421 HP and the # 429422 which was a hollow base.

His powder of choice for heavy loads in the 44 Mag using his bullet was 22grs of 2400 and that was my choice for the heavy loads. I have found that the present 2400 'seems' to be a little hotter than my old Hercules 2400 and as a result of increased preasure signs, I've dropped the charge to 20grs. In all likelihood, when I use up the last of the old Hercules powder, I'll change over to H110.
 
GeoTrekr said:
Further to the above, I have been erring on the side of caution (perhaps too far on the cautious fringe?), in that I have never loaded a 240gr plain lead bullet at max magnum levels - the reason is that every single one of my loading manuals recommends against having a plain lead bullet travel over 1000 fps, and none show a lead load for any velocity approaching Mach 1. So I am genuinely curious - are lead bullets loaded to .44 magnum (HOT) levels a viable alternative to having to use plated or jacketed bullets to avoid this purported leading issue? Or are we assuming something, like the use of a gas-checked bullet?
Click to expand...

I run the 245gr Keith SWC (as noted by Johnn Peterson, it is a plain base bullet) over 24.0gr of H110 without any significant leading problems. Most of the big bore handgun and rifle cartridges tend to do very well with cast bullets at full power levels, contrary to what the manuals say. The manuals are mostly maintaining the old wives tale that cast bullets should never run over 1000fps, but with proper alloy hardness, sizing and lubrication they are good for much more.


Mark
 
Use lead bullet reloading data including choice of powder when using plated bullet of any brand.There is no magic relading the .44 mag. It is an easy cartridge to reload for.
 
I use W296 for my heavy jacketed loads, but have had very good luck with 2400 for both jacketed and cast. Probably my favorite load in my 16" Rossi92 is a 240 gr. cast SWC over Trail Boss. It makes a nice subsonic plinker load for punching paper and the steel swingers.

I'm not going to post my charge weights, because figuring out what works in your gun is half the fun. Stick within published load data for now and have fun!
 
I have loaded the frontier bullets in a 44 ruger carbine, max load of h110. No problems with leading and good accuracy. I would treat them as jacketed. Melted one, the plating is so heavy you have to pop it like a zit to get lead out.
 
Geo tracker, you bring up a lot of interesting points. I don't know where this idea came from that flat base cast bullets could only be driven at such slow speeds.
I used to do silhouette shooting, to 200 metres, with 44 magnum revlovers. I have owned and shot extensively, five different 44 magnum revolvers, two S&W and three Ruger Super Blackhawks. I bought the well known Lyman 429421 mold and the similar bullet gas check mold. After trying each bullet design in my revolvers, I came to the conclusion that using gas checks was a waste of time. The plain base shot every bit as well as did the gas checks. Further, there was no difference in causing leading of the barrels. And I loaded them up. My load was either 22 grains of 2400, or 24 or 25 grains of 296/H110.
I also had a Marlin 44 magnum rifle. I tried the same loads in the rifle, to see if i could see any difference in accuracy, between the gas check version and the plain base. With the iron sights on the rifle I could detect no difference in accuracy. And remember, in the rifle the bullets would be travelling in the order of 1750 to 1800 fps!
Later, I got another Marlin 44 magnum and on this one I put a scope. I still could not detect any difference in accuracy between flat base or gas check bullets.
I think the biggest reason that some loads lead the barrel, is mainly because of how smooth is the barrel. Of my five revolvers, one didn't lead the barrel at all. Another, of the same make, leaded up the barrel, no matter what kind of cast bullet was used. The other three came somewhere in between. Neither of my Marlin rifles leads the barrel. The time I just run a cleaning patch through them and they come out shining.
I have always been an experimenter. I always wanted to try things out for myself, to see what the result sould be. By the same token, I pay little, or no attention to the myriad of unproven theories that are so common on the CGN.
I too, have been caught in the past. When tumbling cartridge cases became popular, It was stated, and seemed to be common knowledge, that it was dangerous to tumble loaded rounds. So I didn't do it and I even told people not to do it!
Now, it is well proven that there is no danger involved in tumbling loaded rounds.
Live and learn.
 
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