I am thinking of buying a Remington revolver, marked .44. The gun was likely born as a .44 Rem. cal, but the seller says a 44.40 cartridge will fit in the chamber. Does this mean the cyl. has been reamed out, or is this normal on a .44 Rem. gun? Thanks, Bill..
.44 Remington cartridge.
- Thread starter oldiron
- Start date
I think you need to give us more info and a photo would be extremely useful. Is the gun original to the 1800s ? Is it a converted percussion revolver or made as a cartridge revolver? Measure the diameter of the chamber accurately and how close to the dimensions of a 44-40 is it? How about the length of the cylinder --- is it long enough to take a factory loaded 44-40 shell. Is there a shoulder in the chamber, which indicates how a long a cartridge it was chambered for?
cheers mooncoon
cheers mooncoon
Thanks Moon. The gun is an 1875 Remington, likely chambered in .44 Rem. cartridge when new. I saw a pic of the Rem. cartridge, it is a straight case, heeled bullet. Maybe the bore on these guns is larger, making it a .Rem. cartridge gun? The gun is a long ways South, can't measure anything. The only mark is .44, so I'm guessing a lot. If I knew the bullet dia. of a Rem. cartridge, maybe I could get a bore measurement done.
Willy Tincup
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Owen Sound
The 44 Remington cartridge wasn't popular for very long. The large majority of 44 Rem revolvers were bored out to take the much more popular 44-40 round. It is my understanding that if a 44-40 round will chamber then it does not meet antique status requirements in Canada..........but I was wrong one other time. 
Bill: My book lists the 44 Remington bullet at .448".
Bill: My book lists the 44 Remington bullet at .448".
Sweetest old west six gun made IMO. Simplicity of design is stellar.
It was not born as a 44 Rem. I can tell u with a little authority that is how Rem1875s designated the 44-40 - sometimes just 44, sometimes 44W and maybe 44WCF. Usually stamped left side of trigger guard or frame just behind the barrel. Serial number under left grip - usually two or three digit for the later 44-40s (and a very few 45LCs made) - because they were made in batches and serial numbers started again each batch. However the first ones in 44Rem were serialized sequentially up to somewhere between 13000 and 16000 I believe (number details could be off).
The first ones made were in 44 Rem - the approx 13000-16000 mentioned above. They had no caliber designation at all on the revolver anywhere. A virgin 44-40 case will definitely not chamber - but a 44 mag case (eeek) and it's shorter siblings (44 special,44colt, 44russian) drop in like it was made for them. The original 44Rem is indeed a heeled bullet because the bore of an original M1875 in 44Rem is about .451 or so (slugged one this week but hard to mic diameter exactly because they are 5 groove). Chamber mouth is .4555". Of course a .429" bullet will just drop unimpeded thru the bore. So simply recutting a 44Rem cylinder to 44-40 (.427" bullet) wasn't done on that account and others too IMO.
Cartridges of the World says 44colt and 44Rem are interchangeable I believe but that is not exactly right.
Sadly however that specimen will be restricted IMO.
It was not born as a 44 Rem. I can tell u with a little authority that is how Rem1875s designated the 44-40 - sometimes just 44, sometimes 44W and maybe 44WCF. Usually stamped left side of trigger guard or frame just behind the barrel. Serial number under left grip - usually two or three digit for the later 44-40s (and a very few 45LCs made) - because they were made in batches and serial numbers started again each batch. However the first ones in 44Rem were serialized sequentially up to somewhere between 13000 and 16000 I believe (number details could be off).
The first ones made were in 44 Rem - the approx 13000-16000 mentioned above. They had no caliber designation at all on the revolver anywhere. A virgin 44-40 case will definitely not chamber - but a 44 mag case (eeek) and it's shorter siblings (44 special,44colt, 44russian) drop in like it was made for them. The original 44Rem is indeed a heeled bullet because the bore of an original M1875 in 44Rem is about .451 or so (slugged one this week but hard to mic diameter exactly because they are 5 groove). Chamber mouth is .4555". Of course a .429" bullet will just drop unimpeded thru the bore. So simply recutting a 44Rem cylinder to 44-40 (.427" bullet) wasn't done on that account and others too IMO.
Cartridges of the World says 44colt and 44Rem are interchangeable I believe but that is not exactly right.
Sadly however that specimen will be restricted IMO.
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44-40 was more properly known as 44 winchester center fire, or 44wcf. I have seen remington and S&W revolvers marked "44" that were chambered for 44-40, and i do not think they were rechambered, although if it was done properly it would be hard to tell.
44-40 will not fit into a 44 remington chamber. If a 44-40 cartridge chambers it's not 44 remington and it's not antique.
44-40 will not fit into a 44 remington chamber. If a 44-40 cartridge chambers it's not 44 remington and it's not antique.
BrotherRockeye
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Rural Saskatchewan
this should help clarify things for those interested.
The 44remington cartridge diagram is my own, made with information gleaned from various sources.
The 44 Remington cartridge picture is a good visual aid, and was posted on the forum by another member.
If I could recall who I would give the proper credit due. My thanks nevertheless!
I included a 44Colt diagram as well as it gives us another possible clue to the 44Remington/44Colt mystery
The 44remington cartridge diagram is my own, made with information gleaned from various sources.
The 44 Remington cartridge picture is a good visual aid, and was posted on the forum by another member.
If I could recall who I would give the proper credit due. My thanks nevertheless!
I included a 44Colt diagram as well as it gives us another possible clue to the 44Remington/44Colt mystery
Might want to get your hand on a Flayderman's guide if you are looking to get an antique into the country, it doesn't tell you everything you want to know but at least it is handy sometimes.
According to Flayderman's:
Remington Model 1875
...
Calibers:44 Remington CF(not marked on gun) approx. the first 16,000 guns; 44-40 (marked just "44" on front flat of frame or bottom of grip)
...
meaning if the gun have a marking of 44 it is 44-40 and you're out of luck.
According to Flayderman's:
Remington Model 1875
...
Calibers:44 Remington CF(not marked on gun) approx. the first 16,000 guns; 44-40 (marked just "44" on front flat of frame or bottom of grip)
...
meaning if the gun have a marking of 44 it is 44-40 and you're out of luck.
Glad OP got his main question answered.
- .033" rim thickness seems very wrong based on my examination of an original Egyptian contract 44Rem specimen (four digit serial number 2###) - but .060" seems absolutely right as your 44colt info has - so ? (Kind of reverse guessing here though - like everyone else except those with an original case in hand). I've seen that .033" rim mentioned on the intraweb before but still ?
- your 44colt text reads that 44colt was an optional chambering for the Rem1875 Egyptian contract. But my reading of that history states solely the 44Rem as a chambering - then 44-40 later. Seems like the explanation is blurring the distinction from the start.
- just wonderin here, but when I quickly measured the round ball after driving it thru the bore it measured a whisker over .445 - your stated bullet diameter for 44 Rem. Just one BIG problem with that - as mentioned above - you just can't measure simply a 5 groove with calipers. Maybe someone did that and posted .445 as bullet/bore diameter in error - I wonder. However I plan to drop the slug (round ball looks like a conical now) thru some known diameter sizers to get a closer fix on the true groove diameter of this old 44Rem 1875. But I'm pretty sure it will be .451 or more probably. As stated above the chamber mouths actually measure .4555" - grossly over size for .445 bullet.
I'm learning - sorry if I'm muddying up the waters - callin it quits 4 tonight.
Regards.
Good effort there BrotherRockeye but still plenty of mystery left for me. Some of your numbers seem off enough as to be not useful to settle much IMO.
- .033" rim thickness seems very wrong based on my examination of an original Egyptian contract 44Rem specimen (four digit serial number 2###) - but .060" seems absolutely right as your 44colt info has - so ? (Kind of reverse guessing here though - like everyone else except those with an original case in hand). I've seen that .033" rim mentioned on the intraweb before but still ?
- your 44colt text reads that 44colt was an optional chambering for the Rem1875 Egyptian contract. But my reading of that history states solely the 44Rem as a chambering - then 44-40 later. Seems like the explanation is blurring the distinction from the start.
- just wonderin here, but when I quickly measured the round ball after driving it thru the bore it measured a whisker over .445 - your stated bullet diameter for 44 Rem. Just one BIG problem with that - as mentioned above - you just can't measure simply a 5 groove with calipers. Maybe someone did that and posted .445 as bullet/bore diameter in error - I wonder. However I plan to drop the slug (round ball looks like a conical now) thru some known diameter sizers to get a closer fix on the true groove diameter of this old 44Rem 1875. But I'm pretty sure it will be .451 or more probably. As stated above the chamber mouths actually measure .4555" - grossly over size for .445 bullet.
I'm learning - sorry if I'm muddying up the waters - callin it quits 4 tonight.
Regards.
Just reading it from the book here, hope this helps.
Remington Model 1875
...
Calibers:44 Remington CF(not marked on gun) approx. the first 16,000 guns; 44-40 (marked just "44" on front flat of frame or bottom of grip)
and .45 (marked same and scarcer; worth 20 percent premium) balance of production; both marked on grip, later on frame, last on trigger bow. 45 cylinder
slightly linger to prevent accidental insertion in 44 frame.
Remington Model 1875
...
Calibers:44 Remington CF(not marked on gun) approx. the first 16,000 guns; 44-40 (marked just "44" on front flat of frame or bottom of grip)
and .45 (marked same and scarcer; worth 20 percent premium) balance of production; both marked on grip, later on frame, last on trigger bow. 45 cylinder
slightly linger to prevent accidental insertion in 44 frame.
BrotherRockeye
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Rural Saskatchewan
Whelen B,
my 44 Remington case specs came from the folks at the Remington Society...you'd think they'd have it right...
I think you misinterpreted the 44Colt text. It should likely read- "when Remington introduced it's 1875 revolver to the public market one of the chambering options was 44 Colt"
Since it was intended as information on the Colt cartridge,NOT on the Remington revolver the writer likely didn't see the need to make the distinction...I'm just guessing here of course because I didn't author that one.
I imagine they offered the 44Colt chambering in an effort to gain sales from the folks that already owned a cartridge converted Remington in 44 Colt...new iron...existing ammo...
Again,I'm just guessing...I wasn't there...
my 44 Remington case specs came from the folks at the Remington Society...you'd think they'd have it right...
I think you misinterpreted the 44Colt text. It should likely read- "when Remington introduced it's 1875 revolver to the public market one of the chambering options was 44 Colt"
Since it was intended as information on the Colt cartridge,NOT on the Remington revolver the writer likely didn't see the need to make the distinction...I'm just guessing here of course because I didn't author that one.
I imagine they offered the 44Colt chambering in an effort to gain sales from the folks that already owned a cartridge converted Remington in 44 Colt...new iron...existing ammo...
Again,I'm just guessing...I wasn't there...
I have a picture somewhere its a photo outa and old book all about the 44 Remington it used a heeled bullet and was the cartridge that the 44 american and 44 russian came from i think , i could be wrong but i remember reading something to that effect within the write up on it.
Thats why the orignal 44 rem chambers had no chamber throats the bullets like the 44 american was heeled as well then came the 44 russian a inside lubed bullet and the guns bore dia went down to work with the non heeled bullets. None of the 1875 remingtons were 44 Russian or 44 american. Just stateing and intresting point.
Some 1875s were made in 45 colt tho.
Its great old info i got from a Book from a CFC Tec i will try and find it. so any true 1875 remy in 44 rem wont have a narrow
.430 bore or even a .427 bore like the 44 40 it will be bigger in dia if its a true 44 rem because of the bigger heeled bullets.
In any case a 44 40 will not chamber in and orignal 44 rem chamber it will go in but will stick out 3/8th or so.
Thats why the orignal 44 rem chambers had no chamber throats the bullets like the 44 american was heeled as well then came the 44 russian a inside lubed bullet and the guns bore dia went down to work with the non heeled bullets. None of the 1875 remingtons were 44 Russian or 44 american. Just stateing and intresting point.
Some 1875s were made in 45 colt tho.
Its great old info i got from a Book from a CFC Tec i will try and find it. so any true 1875 remy in 44 rem wont have a narrow
.430 bore or even a .427 bore like the 44 40 it will be bigger in dia if its a true 44 rem because of the bigger heeled bullets.
In any case a 44 40 will not chamber in and orignal 44 rem chamber it will go in but will stick out 3/8th or so.
Checked today - from my measurements of a 44Rem original M1875 revolver I conclude that the bore groove diameter is .454". The round ball I had drove thru the lightly oiled bore would not push thru a new .452 sizer die with light pressure from a pencil but would push thru a .454" die dry with light pressure from a pencil. It would not fall thru the .454" sizer with gravity.
Bottom line an original 44Rem is/was a heeled 45 bullet. With chamber mouths I also measured of just over .455", I do not think the original bullet would be too much smaller - especially since both cartridge and revolver were newly designed/made for each other at the time. The 44 Rem was never chambered in any other firearm.
Bottom line an original 44Rem is/was a heeled 45 bullet. With chamber mouths I also measured of just over .455", I do not think the original bullet would be too much smaller - especially since both cartridge and revolver were newly designed/made for each other at the time. The 44 Rem was never chambered in any other firearm.
Yep - you'd think they would know - but just folks nonetheless. I've still got some questions. Been following their forum for years on this stuff. Got this 44Rem pic there.
Whelen I can't account for your gun but my 1875 44 remington revolver takes a 44 cal heeled bullet not 45 cal(almost,but certainly not .454)
I use a heel based .447 bullet for best accuracy. Its from a heel base bullet mould from buffalo arms that was designed for the 44 Remington revolver. The overall bullet length is .750" and the length of the heel is .295". The tapered heel is about .433" in diameter at the top and about .429" at the base. It has a 250 grain weight.
In the following picture on left is a FN 45 schofield round next to one of my 44 remington reloads with previously mentioned RN bullet the right, I used 44 russian brass. Unfortunately I could only fit a max of about 21 grain of fffg to get me 550ft/sec on the chronny. Will have to trim a 44 special case to get more black powder in as untrimmed OAL is just a smidgeon too long. Otherwise she is very accurate, that group in the picture was attained free hand at 15 yards. Recovered bullets had nice rifling present.
I use a heel based .447 bullet for best accuracy. Its from a heel base bullet mould from buffalo arms that was designed for the 44 Remington revolver. The overall bullet length is .750" and the length of the heel is .295". The tapered heel is about .433" in diameter at the top and about .429" at the base. It has a 250 grain weight.
In the following picture on left is a FN 45 schofield round next to one of my 44 remington reloads with previously mentioned RN bullet the right, I used 44 russian brass. Unfortunately I could only fit a max of about 21 grain of fffg to get me 550ft/sec on the chronny. Will have to trim a 44 special case to get more black powder in as untrimmed OAL is just a smidgeon too long. Otherwise she is very accurate, that group in the picture was attained free hand at 15 yards. Recovered bullets had nice rifling present.
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BrotherRockeye
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Rural Saskatchewan
just to btt this to the top of the forum because of new interest I'll say...
sweet iron apu!
sweet iron apu!
.447 is a lot closer to a 45 cal heeled bullet (.451-.454) than a 44 (.427-.430). Also your bore may (???) be bigger than you think - like mine - which I slugged at .454. Bullets at .447 might still shoot well. Nice pistol and great target! Thanks for the loading info also - very helpful.
YEP
