44 Webley, anyone loading for it?

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I took the Iver Johnson out back today with some BP loads to test it. I clamped the gun to a board and shot with a string to verify the safety of it and things were all good.

I then shot some loads in my hand and it is really weak, I know this round was a weak one but I want to know what loads others use so I can look at maybe adjusting up a bit. My current load is 10gr of FFFg Goex under a 200gr .430 soft lead slug, was thinking of bumping up to 12gr.

Thanks guys
 
In any black powder cartridge the standard load is a full case with slight compression. If the gun is in a safe condition to fire that should be your load.

You can decrease it slightly by going to more coarse powder or adding a couple wads or a little cream of Wheat for filling but this seldom gives much accuracy or has you hit at point of aim. You can increase it by using finer powder or by drop tubing and compressing the powder.
 
I cannot use a full case, there is not enough case to compress the powder.

The original case length is 0.657" but this did not work well, the step in my chamber allows me to go longer so I ran the case up to 0.74" which is to the crimp groove on the 200gr bullet and maintains the same COAL as the original 44 Webley round.

I have a compression die that a friend made up for me, it is stainless steel and pushes the powder down to 0.25" into the case, this is the depth to get the bullet to seat to the crimp groove. The compression in this case is about 1/16", so I guess I can increase the load and compress more, but there is no way I can load a full case that far, that is 1/3 compression.
 
Not that familiar with this round but it sounds awfully under powered even by the standard of the time.
I did mean full leaving room for the bullet but if you are already there it doesn't leave many options.
Is there a parent case with more internal volume you might use? The old balloon head cases had less brass and more room for powder but are pretty tough to find now.
Found anyone else loading for this cartridge on the British forums or anywhere?

I used to be against the idea of smokeless in most antiques but did a lot of research over a few years and now use it in many of mine. Might be a thing to consider. Unique is my usual choice.
 
vagrantviking said:
Not that familiar with this round but it sounds awfully under powered even by the standard of the time.
I did mean full leaving room for the bullet but if you are already there it doesn't leave many options.
Is there a parent case with more internal volume you might use? The old balloon head cases had less brass and more room for powder but are pretty tough to find now.
Found anyone else loading for this cartridge on the British forums or anywhere?

I used to be against the idea of smokeless in most antiques but did a lot of research over a few years and now use it in many of mine. Might be a thing to consider. Unique is my usual choice.
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I had it looked over by a smith to make sure it was safe, the only iffy thing about it is that it is an American made gun and there were no proof houses like you had in Europe. In Europe they would proof the guns and stamp them, nothing like that on this one.

The gun has a very short barrel, so the velocity will be really low but this is sort of crazy, ha ha.

I read a few placed that say 15-19gr of FFFg but I do not know anyone personally who shoots it, so looking to find out if anyone has.

I had been told in the past to essentially use the case as a scoop for powder then seat a bullet, I think that would be crazy but was told that it is perfectly safe to do that, so upping to 12 or 15gr should not be a problem as long as I can compress it without blowing the case out.

The funny thing is that the round did not even go through a frozen ceder rail fence, ha ha, I found 2 of the bullets and a dent in the one rail.

The factory rounds are listed at around 700fps, I did not see the round leave the bullet but there was a little buff of black.
 
I did some cartridge development with a F & W that is purportedly a 44 Webley. At a quick glance it is a 44 Russian ( fits the casing marvelously ) but the bbl tapers from .43 to about .405 in 2 1/2".
I'm fairly certain that it's not a 44 Russian as my parts gun is an identical piece that someone fired a 44 Russian though. It's a bit crooked now...too much oomph for the frame.
But I have 44 Russian brass but no 44 Russian so a full bore round can't get in the mix.
I took a 41 LC for a starting round as its got a hollow base. My reasoning was it has an outlet for pressure release as the skirt can also compress as well as expand. Put a PL .385 dia bullet in a vise and slowly compressed it, shortening it and increasing the diameter to .43. Drilled out and enlarged the HB to .25 (IIRC), flipped it and drilled out a large HP as well. That taper had me quite concerned, lol.
Wax lubed it and seated it on 15 gr of FFFg Swiss powder.
I was still leary to light up. My son however is fearless, he's 26 thank god. He threw on a set of welding gloves and safety glasses and lit it up.
Seemed to work good.
 
tokguy said:
I did some cartridge development with a F & W that is purportedly a 44 Webley. At a quick glance it is a 44 Russian ( fits the casing marvelously ) but the bbl tapers from .43 to about .405 in 2 1/2".
I'm fairly certain that it's not a 44 Russian as my parts gun is an identical piece that someone fired a 44 Russian though. It's a bit crooked now...too much oomph for the frame.
But I have 44 Russian brass but no 44 Russian so a full bore round can't get in the mix.
I took a 41 LC for a starting round as its got a hollow base. My reasoning was it has an outlet for pressure release as the skirt can also compress as well as expand. Put a PL .385 dia bullet in a vise and slowly compressed it, shortening it and increasing the diameter to .43. Drilled out and enlarged the HB to .25 (IIRC), flipped it and drilled out a large HP as well. That taper had me quite concerned, lol.
Wax lubed it and seated it on 15 gr of FFFg Swiss powder.
I was still leary to light up. My son however is fearless, he's 26 thank god. He threw on a set of welding gloves and safety glasses and lit it up.
Seemed to work good.
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Good info, my .442 bulldog made in Belgium slugged at .411-.412 ish I believe and was wondering why so tight, but I never thought of a taper will have to try and mic or slug the breech and the muzzle, I really would like to find a projectile to fit, jethunter has some that may work if my barrel is similar to yours and has a taper!
The .44 Russian does fit nice, a bit long in mine, but with some cases, they catch when you spin the cylinder and won't pass the firewall.
 
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bobdbldr said:
Good info, my .442 bulldog made in Belgium slugged at .411-.412 ish I believe and was wondering why so tight, but I never thought of a taper will have to try and mic or slug the breech and the muzzle, I really would like to find a projectile to fit, jethunter has some that may work if my barrel is similar to yours and has a taper!
The .44 Russian does fit nice, a bit long in mine, but with some cases, they catch when you spin the cylinder and won't pass the firewall.
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PL is only way to go IMO. It's plasticity is just about not to be believed. I bought 4-5 chains of PL from an Supplier in Cowtown.Throw an 18" pipewrench on the end 'link' with the remaining chain in a big vise. I turned it around about 3 times before it would seperate from the chain.
Maybe I'm simple but I found it slightly amazing.
One might go with a HB .43 PL bullet and a lesser load. Maybe a greased wad or some COW to get the charge down without an air gap.
If anyone has any input or suggestions... please sound off.
 
Mine is not a 442 RIC, it is a 44 Webley made in America, the gun has a stepped Cylinder for inside lubricated bullets, the forcing cone is about .435 and the muzzle is .428. The cylinder will take a longer case but I have found the book on these guys normally took a 44 Webley, but who are we kidding, nothing is marked and there could be a ton of 44s out there, hence cutting the case to fit the COAL of the Webley and be able to crimp it into the crimp groove.

I will see about loading 12gr and 15gr and maybe shoot it over the Chronograph to see, but wanting to work slow and not blow anything up.

I can cut the cases longer, I bought 100 44 S&W cases to cut down, the 44 Mag is a thicker base and longer taper so the trim die gets stuck inside the case when getting close to my case length.

I also have the idea of loading a shotshell for it, because I can, a 44 gas seal wad over some BP with an over shot wad, should work like a CCI capsule.
 
When it gets warm enough, I'll plunk a couple into the Horsetrough. I'm curious to see if the bullet begins expanding immediately after leaving the muzzle; big HP and a big HB, might be a nasty big piece of jagged PL.
E.I. Webley Manstopper sort of thing. If it's not...might entertain a grease filled HP with a wax cap...make it interesting :)
 
cyclone said:
Recipes/loadings?
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There are 3 different sizes of .44 webley brass that i have seen, some take full length .44 russian, i hesitate to give you any load because there is no standard for .44 webley brass, if you tell me your brass overall length i could tell you the load i would use.

For full length .44 russian with or without rims thinned i would start with 2.5 gr trailboss, i use 3 but i worked up to that. For unique i use 4 gr.
 
I just weighed out 2 new load of FFFg, the 12gr load will compress 0.09in and the 15gr load will compress 0.175in, these are both in a case with a length of 0.74in and a bullet seated 0.25in to the crimp groove.

For those wanting to load these, I am using the 44 Special dies, the crimp feature is not possible due to the length of the case but I went through my dies and a 7.62x39 sizing die works perfectly with the decapping pin out of it to put a beautiful crimp on the bullet.

Does anyone here see an issue of cases bulging with the 0.175in compression in such a short case?
 
That sounds like it has potential. 15gr should make it feel like more than a pellet gun.

Is that with a drop tube? 0.175 should be okay but you won't know until you try. It's probably the bullet bulging that will get you if you compress the powder with it instead of in a separate step.
 
vagrantviking said:
That sounds like it has potential. 15gr should make it feel like more than a pellet gun.

Is that with a drop tube? 0.175 should be okay but you won't know until you try. It's probably the bullet bulging that will get you if you compress the powder with it instead of in a separate step.
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I don't really know how a drop tube would help, the standard funnel reaches into the case and the powder is only going 0.5in from the funnel to the bottom of the case.

I have a compression die made, it is stainless steel and has a 0.427in diameter and a depth to the stop of 0.25in, I put one end into the case and the other into the bullet seating die and compress the powder before I put a bullet on there, this keeps the bullet from twisting on loading and does not deform the nose as it did when I used the bullet to compress the powder. The bullet seats right on top of the compressed powder.
 
With a drop tube of 24 inches or so the grains rattle and pack into place without being crushed. It can settle to a level quite a bit lower than normal.

The effect is less both with finer powder and with less powder so in this case it might not make much difference.
 
vagrantviking said:
With a drop tube of 24 inches or so the grains rattle and pack into place without being crushed. It can settle to a level quite a bit lower than normal.

The effect is less both with finer powder and with less powder so in this case it might not make much difference.
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This is why I do not think it will do much in such a short case, I know cases like the 45-70 it matters but this thing is tiny. I do have a 30-06 case cut to act as a funnel extension, 2+in of drop tube and no difference at all.
 
I think that if you can get 15gr to load alright you will have a nice round that isn't too far from the original loadings.
It's a bit funny that people accepted cartridge guns that were so under powered compared to the cap and ball revolvers that came before. Maybe they were happy with an adequate round and didn't have the bigger-is-better mindset common now. This being a short range defense type gun I'm sure it served that purpose pretty well.

Hopefully you have arrived at a level of performance that brings a smile and is a fit pairing to the 25 rimfire from your past project.
 
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