444 seating bullets off kilter...and general 444 discussion thread.

All the ballards now have the 1:20 twist, enough also for the leverevolutions to stabilize.
My microgroove keyholed the 5 that I tried at 150 yards. Gave my friend the other 15. The brass was no good for reloading as it was too short for anything other than the Hornady FTX bullet.
BUT, on a side note, would those shorter case be OK to use to reload the longer cast bullets you guys say wont normally chamber in the rifles due to excess OAL???
Newbie asking so be nice.
 
It would be worth a try and may in fact make the .444 a little more versatile and allow the use of all kinds of deadly cast bullet designs. How much shorter is that new brass???
 
You can make the case length shorter, but I wouldn't go any shorter than Case Trim Lenght as set by standards. Even with the case trim length set, seating depth is of particular importance. First of all, C.O.L. is limited by the action of the Marlin as well as the Winchester rifles. Then there is throat length, in the chamber, that will limit the maximum C.O.L., because these guns have relatively short throats, and bullets with strong front driving bands may require deeper seating. The LBT bullets I was using had strong front driving bands. Therefore, before I went to a custom mould, I used a Lee Crimp die to put a crimp grove over the ogive so that I could close the action and not create any excessive pressures by doing so. There are most likely cast bullets out there that already have the crimp groove set up for Marlin lever actions; however, I don't know for sure.


I must also mention that one of the other things I did, to try and get the rifle to shoot accurately was slugging the barrel to see if there were any tight spots, which there were. I ended up having to fire lap the barrel to make it uniform. However, I still couldn't get the accuracy I wanted. I even tried sizing the bullets to .432 and .433 as well as pushing them to max safe velocities, to no avail.
 
Well if there's one thing i can say about these marlins is that each one definately seems to have it's own personality. my 1:38 microgroove 444s shoots the leverevoloutions into tidy little 2" groups at 100m with the factory iron sights. but most apparently wont, and the same goes that many won't shoot cast well while alot of people claim that it works just fine in theirs.
personally i don't like the idea of microgroove much, but i don't find the slower twist to be much of a disadvantage. in theory i believe it actually allows for less pressure with equal velocities, as it was once described to me;

"1-38 twist compared to 1:20, load for load uses less pressure to push a bullet giving you faster bullet speeds for the same powder charge and the same bullet wgt. Think of it this way, if you tried to drive a nail into hard wood it would go, but if you tried to drive a deck screw with a hammer it would resist. "

in addition to this, in my short ammount of experience with this gun i've found that with the 1:38 twist i need to use faster powder than i would with the same bullet weight in a 1:20 twist to compensate for the lower pressure. i figured this out by the hugh fireballs and unburned kernels i was getting with H335, even using a heavy crimp and magnum primers. reloder7 and H4198 seem to give much better results in the 1:38.
i could be wrong but i believe this would mean higher velocities with equal ammounts of pressure. and if that bit of scientific theory is true, then i think i'd prefer to use a 265g FP bullet in a 1:38 twist moving faster and reaching farther than a 350g 45/70 with 1:20 twist. sure it's not the same class of gun but it will still flatten moose and black bear at moderate ranges, with less drop, less powder, and less recoil than a 45/70. apples and oranges...
I wouldn't doubt its capability on big browns at close range either with the right loads.
 
mikeystew said:
"1-38 twist compared to 1:20, load for load uses less pressure to push a bullet giving you faster bullet speeds for the same powder charge and the same bullet wgt. Think of it this way, if you tried to drive a nail into hard wood it would go, but if you tried to drive a deck screw with a hammer it would resist. "
Click to expand...

I do not know who described that to you Mikey, but I think they gave you some bad info. Lower pressure = lower velocity, all other things being equal. For example, moly coating bullets will result in a loss of velocity with the same load. But the loss is not linear, so you can increase powder until your pressure is back to its original level and the bullet will be traveling faster.

Whomever described quoted statement is incorrect. If the bullets are driven at the same pressure, then maybe the 1 in 20 might be faster, but not for a given bullet and powder charge.

Cheers.
 
Pudelpointer said:
I do not know who described that to you Mikey, but I think they gave you some bad info.
Whomever described quoted statement is incorrect. If the bullets are driven at the same pressure, then maybe the 1 in 20 might be faster, but not for a given bullet and powder charge.

Cheers.
Click to expand...

I was told that by an american competition benchrest shooter and gunsmith. someone i hold in very high regard who is well respected in numerous shooting communities. i guess there's always a chance he may be wrong, but i doubt it.
 
mikeystew said:
I was told that by an american competition benchrest shooter and gunsmith. someone i hold in very high regard who is well respected in numerous shooting communities. i guess there's always a chance he may be wrong, but i doubt it.
Click to expand...

I agree with Pudelpointer. This is straight from the Barnes #3 reloading Manual for XLC coated bullets. " When pressure is reduced velocity is also reduced. However, when pressure is again increased to safe limits, velocity increases." In the case of Barne XLC coated bullets the velocity increase as a result of pressure increase can be as much as 200 f/sec faster than a non coated bullet. To increase pressure and thus increase velocity; however, one must load and burn more powder with each shot.
 
I'm no rocket surgeon but you could be right about slightly higher vel. due to slower twist, I'm not sure, however, the 1 in 38 twist may cause instability esp. at longer ranges if using longer then std. pistol bullets. I have heard of someone testing 400gr. WFN bullets in the .444 however, not sure of the details re: twist rate, diameter, etc. Are the new ones Ballard with a faster twist or are they still microgroove??
 
ben hunchak said:
I'm no rocket surgeon but you could be right about slightly higher vel. due to slower twist, I'm not sure, however, the 1 in 38 twist may cause instability esp. at longer ranges if using longer then std. pistol bullets. I have heard of someone testing 400gr. WFN bullets in the .444 however, not sure of the details re: twist rate, diameter, etc. Are the new ones Ballard with a faster twist or are they still microgroove??
Click to expand...

The new ones are ballard with a 1:20 twist. i'd actually like to se a side by side chrony of the two guns, both 22" barrels, with the same load, and different twist rates.
I really trust my sources opinion, infact another tip he gave my was not to use HP bullets because they were longer and therefore would be more difficult to stabilize in the slower twist. he advised me to use only flat point bullets in this gun and keep the weight under 300 grains. the new guns will easily stabilize up to 400 grain cast loads.
 
mikeystew said:
The new ones are ballard with a 1:20 twist. i'd actually like to se a side by side chrony of the two guns, both 22" barrels, with the same load, and different twist rates.
I really trust my sources opinion, infact another tip he gave my was not to use HP bullets because they were longer and therefore would be more difficult to stabilize in the slower twist. he advised me to use only flat point bullets in this gun and keep the weight under 300 grains. the new guns will easily stabilize up to 400 grain cast loads.
Click to expand...

Well you can defiantly shoot 400 cast in the new barrels as I have done it many times as long as you push them near max. As for the hollow point comment you need to look at my first post and see for yourself that 200 grn hollow points work fine as well as the 325 gn hollow points in the microgroove and the Ballard barrels. If the Hollow point bullet is designed right it is actually more accurate that a solid point as per Elmer Keith.

I use my 3 groove 325 gn hollow point bullet to reload lever evolution brass and crimp in the lowest groove.

I have tried the same load 200 gn hollow point with IMR3031 at max loading side by side and the new ballard barrel does indeed shoot quicker by about 50fps.
 
mikeystew said:
The new ones are ballard with a 1:20 twist. i'd actually like to se a side by side chrony of the two guns, both 22" barrels, with the same load, and different twist rates.
Click to expand...

I'll do that next time I'm at the range. I chronied all the loads I tried in my 22" 1:38 Micro. I have sold this one but now have a 1:20 Ballard. I'll try the same loads in the Ballard and see if there is any signigicant difference.
 
mikeystew said:
The new ones are ballard with a 1:20 twist. i'd actually like to se a side by side chrony of the two guns, both 22" barrels, with the same load, and different twist rates.
I really trust my sources opinion, infact another tip he gave my was not to use HP bullets because they were longer and therefore would be more difficult to stabilize in the slower twist. he advised me to use only flat point bullets in this gun and keep the weight under 300 grains. the new guns will easily stabilize up to 400 grain cast loads.
Click to expand...

I too, would sure like to see the results of such a chrony test on the two, very different twists. Can't some of you out there arrange it?
Common sense has always told me that it must take more power to spin the bullet so much faster, with the tighter twist actually creating an impedent to the bullet. Therefore, the slower twist barrel should give greater velocity.
I have proven your other theory, about hollow point bullets being harder to stabalize. My Hornet will shoot good with regular 40 grain bullets, but 45 grain start to open up the group. I tried Barnes 36 grain hollow points. these bullets are actually longer than the 45 grain regular bullets I have, that wouldn't quite stabalize. The longer hollow points made a pattern at 100 yards a foot across and the holes were not quite round!
 
This is getting friggin good....... I can't wait to see some numbers. I still am curious about the lever evo brass. I have a couple of rounds and some Rem brass. (of course the battery died in my caliper) but I'll fix that today and see the difference in length of rem brass and hornady. Hey HUNTER64, can you give me a bit more info on your reloading of the HORNADY brass and what recipe you used. That interests me a lot, as they of course are using that proprietary powder and the pointy bullet, so they said it will be hard to use their brass for non-hornday bullet/powder combinations at home. Seems like you know different.
 
This is just to show, possibly, the other side of whether a sharper twist is an impediment to the bullet going down the barrel.
I once chronographed five, standard load, 180 grain 30-06 loads. Then, with five more of the exact same loads, I coated the part of the bullet that stuck out of the case with STP, that syruppy looking automotive stuff. I would coat a bullet, then shoot it, coat another bullet and shoot it, until all five had been shot over the Oehler chronograph.
The bullets coated in the super lubricant averaged about 100 fps slower, than did the same loads, not coated.
This would make it appear that more resistance to the bullet going through the bore, lets pressure build up and gives more velocity to the bullet.
Damn, can't some of you guys arrange a chronograph test on barrel rate of twist?
 
SaddleTramp said:
I am curious. My Marlin is a 444S with a micro-groove barrel. This is a pre-crossbolt safety rifle. What would(should) the rate of twist be? What does the "S" stand for? The serial number is 21104### if that helps any.
Click to expand...

It is easy to test the twist of your rifling. You need a cleaning rod with the swivel in the handle, so the rod turns as it goes through the rifling. Use quite a tight fitting patch on the rod. Start it into the rifling from the muzzle. Put a dot with a marking pen, at the start of the barrel. Near the handle end of the rod, put a mark with a marking pen exactly on the top of the rod.
Now, slowly push the rod in the barrel, until your back mark again comes to the top. Put another mark at the barrel end. With the rod out, measure the distance between the barrel marks and you have your twist.
With the very slow twist, you may have to make only half a revolution of the rod.
 
H4831 said:
I tried Barnes 36 grain hollow points. these bullets are actually longer than the 45 grain regular bullets I have, that wouldn't quite stabalize. The longer hollow points made a pattern at 100 yards a foot across and the holes were not quite round!
Click to expand...

Yup, the 36 grain grenades have the same profile as a flat based 52 grain hollow point traditional lead cup/core bullet.

I achieved stable but less then spectacular groups (always 3/4 to 1 inch - that is actually not great in my rifle) and had to push them up over 4300 (not chronied) to get them to tighten up. Now they stay under 1/2", but sweet jeebus are they hot.
 
SaddleTramp said:
I am curious. My Marlin is a 444S with a micro-groove barrel. This is a pre-crossbolt safety rifle. What would(should) the rate of twist be? What does the "S" stand for? The serial number is 21104### if that helps any.
Click to expand...

Yours would be a 1979 with a 1:38 twist, and the "s" stands for sporter, which is the designation given to marlins with 3/4 length mag tubes. It is basically the same as mine with the bulseye in the stock and gold trigger... only one year older.

And the more i ponder this issue, im thinking the 1:38 could indeed produce slower velocity than 1:20 twist all things else being equal, due to the reduced pressure. however for the handloader, 1:38 could possibly allow you to load with an equal volume of faster burning powder, giving you more, or at least equal velocity compared to the same volume of slower powder in the 1:20 twist. Hmmm, i think i may be onto something here...
Im loving this thread!
 
Thanks Mikeystew...Good to know. I think someone on here wanted to know why you would buy a .444 when a .45-70 was better? The reason I bought my .444 was because I didn't want the same as everyone else. I have always liked different...or maybe thats because I'm different. AW Hell...I just like the big bugger when it goes off.
 
SaddleTramp said:
I think someone on here wanted to know why you would buy a .444 when a .45-70 was better? The reason I bought my .444 was because I didn't want the same as everyone else. I have always liked different...or maybe thats because I'm different. AW Hell...I just like the big bugger when it goes off.
Click to expand...

thats like saying why buy a 308 when a 30-06 is better. sure 45/70 is more powerfull and has a wider selection of bullets, and is more effective against elephants... granted, but the 444 is nothing to sneeze at either. it's a powerfull gun for medium to large game, and it dosen't kick as much as a 45/70, it uses less powder to reload for it, and has a flatter trajectory. Im getting kind of tired of people comparing one gun to the next. each has it's own place, complete with advantages and disadvantages.
reminds me of the .22lr vs .17hmr debate... good god man f:P:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom