45/70 COAL and Hornady Brass troubles

MosinMan13

MosinMan13

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I came home and loaded up a batch of 405gr FN from campro with a cannelure.

In traditional rookie fashion I set to the cannelure depth and went about the batch before checking the COAL afterwards and realized I’m .10” too short of the book 2.55” COAL.

I checked the brass, I had a few mixed boxes of once fired brass from the friend I bought it all off of, this box was all Hornady Leverevolution which measures 2.040 case length (.060 shorter than the book spec) and I understand this to make up the difference for the plastic tips.

My questions concern over if these are safe to shoot at this overall length being essentially set back .10” from the max, and if there’s a way to calculate the pressure difference I’ve created by setting the projectile that much deeper?

For what it’s worth am I better off seeing if I can pull the bullets out to the 2.55” COAL and crimping where ever it sits? Will I run into issues then with having less brass contact around the projectile?

I’m certainly never using this box of brass ever again.
 
MosinMan13 said:
I came home and loaded up a batch of 405gr FN from campro with a cannelure.

In traditional rookie fashion I set to the cannelure depth and went about the batch before checking the COAL afterwards and realized I’m .10” too short of the book 2.55” COAL.

I checked the brass, I had a few mixed boxes of once fired brass from the friend I bought it all off of, this box was all Hornady Leverevolution which measures 2.040 case length (.060 shorter than the book spec) and I understand this to make up the difference for the plastic tips.

My questions concern over if these are safe to shoot at this overall length being essentially set back .10” from the max, and if there’s a way to calculate the pressure difference I’ve created by setting the projectile that much deeper?

For what it’s worth am I better off seeing if I can pull the bullets out to the 2.55” COAL and crimping where ever it sits? Will I run into issues then with having less brass contact around the projectile?

I’m certainly never using this box of brass ever again.
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Is it a hot load? Is the powder compressed? Is it a modern firearm? Unless you are running at the ragged edge of pressures, I've played more with seating depth than that just chasing nodes. Pull one to SAMI COAL and then load a couple more progressively until you reach that depth, fire from shallowest to deepest and watch for pressure signs if you are really worried about it.
 
MosinMan13 said:
I came home and loaded up a batch of 405gr FN from campro with a cannelure.

In traditional rookie fashion I set to the cannelure depth and went about the batch before checking the COAL afterwards and realized I’m .10” too short of the book 2.55” COAL.

I checked the brass, I had a few mixed boxes of once fired brass from the friend I bought it all off of, this box was all Hornady Leverevolution which measures 2.040 case length (.060 shorter than the book spec) and I understand this to make up the difference for the plastic tips.

My questions concern over if these are safe to shoot at this overall length being essentially set back .10” from the max, and if there’s a way to calculate the pressure difference I’ve created by setting the projectile that much deeper?

For what it’s worth am I better off seeing if I can pull the bullets out to the 2.55” COAL and crimping where ever it sits? Will I run into issues then with having less brass contact around the projectile?

I’m certainly never using this box of brass ever again.
Click to expand...

You raise several points - I will try to reply to most of them. First, consider the loading manual "book" as a report of what they got, with their rifles, on their pressure test machines. That may or may not have much to do with your stuff - since you are likely using a different rifle with a different chamber, and different cases, different primers, different powder, different bullet (at least different lots of those) than they did. Hence, that "book's" COAL number is pretty much useless to you to build your hand loads. Your magazine is going to tell you the COAL that it wants, and the location of lands and the desired "bullet jump" that you want will tell you the COAL for that - up to you to decide - what the book says about it, is pretty much irrelevant to you.

I do not know any home hand loader who owns or has access to a pressure testing machine - so, I do not think there is any hand loader who can tell you how many PSI increase that you get for "x" amount of seating deeper. Is probably why EVERY manual here - and is lots of them - says to "start low and work up" - sounds like you just jumped in and loaded up a pile of rounds - nothing that you described mentions "working up" - sounds like you do not know where your lands are compared to your closed bolt face - hence a "COAL" number, from someone else's rifle, is about useless to you. After you have fired some number of rounds, your lands will be eroded, and if 0.030" is important "bullet jump" for you to maintain, that COAL will have changed in your rifle, so you will have to alter what your reloads measure. Is many reloads that I have done that the bullet cannelure is way out forward from the case mouth, or some are down inside the case mouth - is not important, unless you are doing roll crimping into jacketed bullets - many bullets do NOT have a cannelure at all - is up to you to determine how deep that you will seat bullets, for YOUR rifle. Some of us have NEVER crimped a jacketed bullet in a rifle case.

The chamber in your rifle will be cut with a diameter for your case neck to fit - you do not want to run into the end of that - is from thinking that brass might get longer when it is fired - so want to have some "spare space" before that mouth of your case runs into the end of that cut-out - nothing to do with how deep bullet is seated - nothing to do with COAL - but about everything to do - usually - with the recommended "maximum" and trim length of your cases - why you will want to pay attention to case length - BEFORE you reload that case.

The above was speaking of rifles and rifle chambers - it might be different with handguns - I have no experience loading for them.
 
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Rynnik said:
Is it a hot load? Is the powder compressed? Is it a modern firearm? Unless you are running at the ragged edge of pressures, I've played more with seating depth than that just chasing nodes. Pull one to SAMI COAL and then load a couple more progressively until you reach that depth, fire from shallowest to deepest and watch for pressure signs if you are really worried about it.
Click to expand...

That’s a good call and I hadn’t thought about it but I’ll try that first. It’s 38gr of H4198 and Campros 405gr fn jacketed bullets, powder isn’t compressed, lots of space still. It’s a load I had been working up on with my 1895 CB (modern firearm) I just made the sloppy decision that assume that I had checked and sized all the brass in the one bin but I suppose I should tighten up my rules at the bench.
 
MosinMan13 said:
That’s a good call and I hadn’t thought about it but I’ll try that first. It’s 38gr of H4198 and Campros 405gr fn jacketed bullets, powder isn’t compressed, lots of space still. It’s a load I had been working up on with my 1895 CB (modern firearm) I just made the sloppy decision that assume that I had checked and sized all the brass in the one bin but I suppose I should tighten up my rules at the bench.
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If you do decide to shoot it out and start long and work back watching for pressure, let us know if you get to the deep seating without pressure signs. Especially in an 1895 I wouldn't be sweating that load personally. YMMV and don't take anyones word for it, but that is what I would do.
 
MosinMan13 said:
In traditional rookie fashion I set to the cannelure depth and went about the batch before checking the COAL afterwards and realized I’m .10” too short of the book 2.55” COAL.
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Book COAL is a maximum, not a minimum. They are your cartridges, you can make them any length you want that works in your gun.

Did you start with a modest load and work up to the current charge using the OAL you have now? If you did, you have nothing to worry about.

If you didn't, well, your technique has bigger problems than the published overall length.
 
BattleRife said:
Book COAL is a maximum, not a minimum. They are your cartridges, you can make them any length you want that works in your gun.

Did you start with a modest load and work up to the current charge using the OAL you have now? If you did, you have nothing to worry about.

If you didn't, well, your technique has bigger problems than the published overall length.
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No 100% you’re correct, I did start building up from the lowest end of the book load, I did start with brass I measured to be in spec, and I gradually had built up to where I am, however I’m now .10” shorter overall and given that’s reduced volume of the case and distance from the lands I’m thinking it’s probably not worth finding out, Marlin 1895s aren’t the stoutest.

I also did get sloppy, and what I think I’m taking away from a lot of the good points I’ve found here and elsewhere.
1. Reloading like a lot of technical skills and precision crafts isn’t something one should put down and pickup sporadically without practice, refresher or discipline.
2. Continuing with discipline, cutting corners (starting loading after weeks off on a load, with no notes, using brass that hasn’t been inspected, and assuming the cannelure to be a measuring device) can lead to dangerous and sloppy work at a runaway pace.
3. Every firearm is different and even though I loaded for a different rifle of mine for years, does not mean I can make assumptions and generalizations about another rifle.
4. When in doubt start over.

I think combining some of the points raised above, photos of some blown up 1895s in a Marlin forum and knowing the context that these are just meant to be plinking rounds, I’m going to just take the loss on the primers, start over on good brass in spec.

Had it been a heartier rifle or a more important round I may have tried to gauge the pressure by working down to that spec. Given the above linked thread I’m going to start back at the beginning and figure out what my rifle needs specifically.
 
Good ole Hornady...

I had bought a bunch of their Leverevolution 325Gr ammo, then went to reload it and went wtf? Why is it so short? I called Hornady, first thing the guy asked is if I was using Hornady dies, I said "RCBS". He said that was my problem, lol! I said "No, the brass is too short!" He just said that's how they make the brass for Leverevolution ammo. Really?? Thanks man!

I've reloaded the Hornady brass once, loaded it to normal specs, no issues in my Marlin 1895.

Remington, Federal and Starline brass is much nicer to reload.

The Hornady brass just occupies a small space on the shelf now...
 
Hornady brass for their FTX is shorter than standard. They're safe to shoot, but your load and seating depth will have to be carefully adjusted to work for your firearm. Crimping becomes an issue too if you're not seated to the cannelure - some dies can do this. To save yourself the headache, just buy some real brass. Starline is my favourite, but anything OTHER than that silly Hornady stuff will be fine.
 
Canuck65 said:
Hornady brass for their FTX is shorter than standard. They're safe to shoot, but your load and seating depth will have to be carefully adjusted to work for your firearm. Crimping becomes an issue too if you're not seated to the cannelure - some dies can do this. To save yourself the headache, just buy some real brass. Starline is my favourite, but anything OTHER than that silly Hornady stuff will be fine.
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Any idea where one couldn find a reference as to which Hornady Flex Tip factory ammohas shorter than standard length brass? I have heard that the 348 Winchester ammo has shorter than standard brass. I have heard that some other calibers have standard length brass.
 
MosinMan13 said:
...

Had it been a heartier rifle or a more important round I may have tried to gauge the pressure by working down to that spec. Given the above linked thread I’m going to start back at the beginning and figure out what my rifle needs specifically.
Click to expand...

In the Woodleigh manual here, it suggests setting bullet 0.020" to 0.040" back from lands and using that dimension for pressure testing series - for their bullets. Then can "tweek" your jump - a bit more or a bit less, to find if that alters accuracy in your rifle. I had also read that some lever actions very fussy about COAL in order to feed the round - does not like too long or too short cartridges. Seperately, I had read the mono-metal bullets typically want a LOT more "jump" - like .075" of so - to get best accuracy. I do not know what you will discover. I do know that we are not seeing many lever action repeaters, any more, for "bench rest" target shooting winners - maybe have to settle for "good enough", versus "world class", precision.

"World class" bench rest, by the way, might be 5 round group at 100 yards into "teens" or less - so centre-to-centre less than .019" - I do not even know how to measure that - tends not to be an issue for me. Whereas "good enough" might be all rounds feed and fire without fuss, and 5 round groups at 100 yards might be 2 inches - many folk happy with that.
 
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All of my 45-70's are single shots: Sharps, Rolling block, Ruger, 1885. In these, I use "regular" length cases with bullets from 300 grs to 550 grs.
In the Marlin Cowboy, I use "short" Hornady cases with 325 Gr. FTX bullets and various cast bullets from 300 grs to 405 grs. I use a set of RCBS dies for the single shots and crimp with a Lyman Taper Crimp die.
For the Marlin, I use a dedicated set of LEE dies adjusted for the short cases and crimping is accomplished with a LEE Factory crimp die made for "Leverevolution" (Short)cases. This method has been problem free for both my son and me.
The LEE SKU # for the crimp die is: 91639LVR

https://www.leeprecision.com/collet-style-crimp-die

Scroll down till you find the right SKU for the description.
 
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Got some .444 brass from flex trip ammo that was short, only used them for hard cast plunking loads.

Side question, anyone else have bad primer pockets? Some of mine you could almost push them in with your thumb... Direct deposit into file 13.
 
I’m not aware of one, but the info must be out there. With so many other (and better) options for brass, I’d just avoid Hornady. That’s just me though.
 
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